Oral History Interview with Ray Scott

0:00K: This is Kelly Lally, and I’m here in , with Mr. Ray Scott. Today is July the 16th, 1987. When were you born, Mr. Scott?

R: August the 19th, 1913.

K: And what area of the state did you grow up in?

R: In , Sulphur Well, is a little resort community which is, ‘course faded into oblivion now, as far as resort’s concerned.

K: Where is that in relation to the area?

R: Well it’s about, oh thirty, thirty miles east of .

K: How many people were in your family?

R: A total of five boys and two girls.

K: And where did you fall in relation to the kids? What number were you?

R: Well I was number, I was number three—No, number four. I’m sorry. [chuckles]

K: What did your family do for a living?

R: We had a farm, about—Well actually two farms, about three hundred acres, and one of the farms had been in our family since about 1830, and as a matter of fact, it still is. My older brother still owns and operates it. And so we grew up as farmers, and as, well, it was a good living, but very little money to be made at it.

2:00K: What were times like for you and your family during the Depression?

R: They were really rough. I graduated from high school right in the middle of the Depression in 1931, and [clears throat] there was very little in the way of employment opportunities at that time, and of course, prices of farm products were so deflated that it was almost impossible to stay out of debt for two or three years until the conditions, economic conditions started to improve. And during that period, why, I worked at a few odd jobs. As a matter of fact, I taught a one-room school for one year. ‘Course I wanted to get out of that thing quickly, and that was my first and last time to be in the teaching area.

K: What did your family farm?

R: I’m sorry?

K: What did your family farm?

R: Oh, tobacco was the so-called “money crop,” but they also grew corn, hay, and oh, a few other odd things from time to time. Some cattle, and not many hogs for sale, but cattle. We also had horses and mules. And as a matter of fact, I rode a horse along with ten or twelve of our friends and associates in that same area to high school for four years.

3:45K: Well how did you hear about the CCC?

R: [clears throat] Well I became familiar with it through the news releases back in—Well, as soon as the law was passed creating the Civilian Conservation Corps. And I made a determination then that I would make an effort to get in it, because I thought it would be a great experience, and at the same time, have an opportunity to make a few dollars. ‘Course see, the salary was very nominal as I remember. Thirty dollars a month. But that was still better than nothing during these Depression years.

K: How were people selected for the CCC in your area?

R: Uh, the best of my knowledge, as I recall, why, they were selected on the, on the basis of need of employment, more than anything else. It wasn’t necessary, necessarily from an economic standpoint, because some of the people that I later found my—you know, found in my camp, were, you know, they came from families with, I’d say, not really wealthy, but with nominal means, and ‘course that was true with our own family. We had, see, we had plenty to eat and good clothes to wear, but not much money. Incidentally, my first experience in the three-C was not at , but in .

K: Is that where they sent you first?

R: Yes. I wound up in a company, as I remember the number was company 543, uh, with people from central and the cave area, and also from western . Our first assignment, uh, the camp, was in Sequoia National Park in California, at 7200 feet above sea level, up in the Sierra Nevadas.

K: Well what year was that that you went //

R: That was 1933.

K: And how long did you stay in ?

6:18R: Well, I stayed—I was in Sequoia for four months. This is from June, uh, up until early October. And then, then the company was disbanded and the ones that were interested in staying along could join another company, merge in with another company. And I don’t recall the number of that one. But anyway, it was made up mostly of boys from , so we had a mixture of Kentuckians and Ohioans. And we were moved initially to California Hot Springs. That was about, oh, seventy-five miles south of Sequoia, up in the, as I recall, . And there’s a road building project going on there. And I was associated with a group that was on up in the higher mountains on this road project. But we didn’t stay there very long. The entire company was transferred out of there over on the , out at , to complete a road over the to the Pacific coast, and joining up with the road that was skirting the . So I spent, well from, I guess it was late October, or possibly early November, from that time on until the following April, working on this road over the Coast Range. Really an interesting experience. I started out working with the survey crew, and then from that to a jackhammer operator, and later on doing all the blasting on that project. And we finally completed the road all the way down to the .

8:29K: So how’d you get back in this area of the country?

R: Oh, like after—Oh God, there’s another phase of it. We left there in April, the entire company, and moved to . Um, up near a little community which was a sort of an abandoned lumbering town by the name of . This was not far from and some of the other points in northern . And the project there was blister rust control. This was going up the slopes of the mountains with a little pickaxe—not axe, little, well, it was a small hand hole that you would rub up the gooseberry and currant bushes, which according to the foresters was an alternate host that the blister rust spread from the white pine to the alternate host, these gooseberry and currant bushes, and then back to the white pine again, eventually killing the white pine. And so after about a week on that job, why, the captain of the company found out that I’d had experience as a sign painter, so I was pulled back into camp to paint signs, which I did for the next two and a half months until I came back to Kentucky in July of 1934.

K: So did you choose to come back here, or did they send you back?

R: Well no, that was the end of it. That was as long—At that particular time, I think the maximum time that you could stay in the three-C organization was roughly a year and a half, or whatever the term worked out as. So I came back and went to school at for a half year. I’d saved up enough money to do that. That was—I went there during the fall semester of 1934 and early ’35. And then I came back, came back to my home near Sulphur Well, and spent a little time. Then went to summer school at Western, for the summer school term. And had intended to go to Western that fall, but my application for part-time employment didn’t materialize. At about the time that I was waiting for that to happen, why, I was approached to go back in the three-C’s, located at . And I decided, well what the heck, I’d take another shot at it.

K: So this was 193—

R: That was in the summer of—September, 1935. 1:00R: And I was assigned to what they called the New Entrance Camp Number Two. And ‘course, I started out there—I can’t really remember exactly what I was doing, but after, after a short time, I was—the chap that was doing construction photography on projects and—I guess you’d call it the progress construction photographs—He left for some other employment, and he recommended me for the job. And of course I’d been working with, in a little lab that we’d set up at the camp, and I’d learned some of the basic fundamentals of photography. So it just worked right into what I’d been hoping to do. I never had much experience or training in photography, but I thought that I’d had enough to handle a job, which I did. And I was photography, I say, the various operations, or the various progress of the different phases of construction in what was known as the project. Because it wasn’t a national park at that time. And uh, ‘course many of the projects were landscaping, and others were the construction of buildings. Some were cave trails, where they were being improved. And as a matter of fact, just a multitude of things. And uh, among these projects were, from time to time, why, I would be called on to go out and shoot pictures of property that were under condemnation by the federal government. This is one of the procedures when they can’t reach an agreement on price for the property, the land is condemned, and then it goes through a federal court process. And ‘course, they wanted pictures of houses or barns or even timber. And uh, so usually I would be accompanied by, you know, one of the other boys would be driving a car or pickup, and we’d make the pictures that way. On one occasion, I know that there was a person that was very antagonistic toward the park program, and even the condemnation procedures. And uh, so as I was taking a picture, not on his property, but from this road in front of his property, why, he came out with a shotgun and offered, ordered us to leave that area, which we did in a hurry. [laughs]

K: [laughs]

R: But I later got the picture by shooting out of the window of the car.

K: Was Mr. Thomas with you that day?

R: He was with me, that’s right.

K: He told me that story too.

R: Yeah, he was driving, he was driving the pickup, as I recall.

K: I think I’ve also seen some of your pictures of some of the residential buildings, cottages.

R: Well yes, I have had, I’ve had pictures published in more recent years in some hundred and fifty different publications, including newspapers, magazines, and any number of books. Quite a number of encyclopedias, especially books relating to travel in the national parks.

K: These are—were up at the park. I did a project on the ranger structures around the maintenance area. And there was construction pictures. I thought you might’ve done those.

R: That’s entirely possible. 2:00K: Did you live in camp?

R: I lived in camp in 1935 and ’36 and I’m trying to recall exactly. I think it was sometime in 1936 that I received an appointment, a civil service appointment as junior assistant to technician, which I had attained through a competitive civil service examination. And this of course was a, some increase in salary, not any significant amount, but it also moved me out of the three-C category. And I was assigned to a landscape architect there at Mammoth Cave, who was—Well I guess he was the person responsible for all the landscaping improvements throughout the park, and especially around the caves and the hotel area, and things of that nature, as well as trails, foot trails, the development of trails, parking areas, and those features. A lot of them which are in existence today. One of my assignments was handling the routing of the legend that went on the signs, the trail signs. And while I didn’t do the exact routing, I was working with the crew that did, and also in locating the position that the signs, directional and mileage signs that go on the trails. And also, I did work as a topographic draftsman, as well as continuing my work in photography. 3:00K: Did you have any relationship with the three-C’s while you were doing that?

R: Oh yes. Many of my activities were still related to the three-C program, because all the construction and other projects were, you know, still being handled by the three-C camp, or camps—Actually, there were four in Mammoth Cave National Park at that time, or the park project. And uh, ‘course I was covering in photographic records what all these different camps were doing. And uh, as a matter of fact, I had one assistant that was helping me in the lab, that was one of the boys from a three-C camp. As a matter of fact, some of those boys became quite proficient in photography as a result of being able to work with it. 4:00K: Well how long did you stay in the area, in the cave area, working?

R: Well after—it was somewhat of an evolution of different activities and different types of employment—After about a year in this junior assistant to technician position, all those jobs were abolished. But at the same time, I had establish a rapport with the hotel operators, which were under the direction of the Mammoth Cave operating committee, which was an organization of the Mammoth Cave National Park Association, and the Kentucky National Park Commission, and I’d done quite a bit of work for them, both in the publicity area, and ‘course with various, various pictures of the cave that were needed both by the national park project as well as the hotel people. So they hired me immediately after I was, my position was terminated by the abolishment of these assistant technician positions. So I stayed, I stayed in that position, let’s see, through 1937, and on into 1938. And during the fall of ’38, I took a leave of absence and went to a professional photography school in , the . And it was set up on, well, you could take a half-year course or a two-year course. Or you could finish the two-year course in progression, as you progressed, why, you could finish the course. So it so happened that with my background, I was able to finish the two-year course in the four and a half months.

K: Hm. 5:00R: So uh, well after that, in the following spring, which was 1939, why, I came back to Mammoth Cave as a publicity photographer, working with a professor of journalism, who was, his regular job was at Marquette University in Milwaukee, but he came back to Mammoth Cave during the summers for about three months, and did the writing of publicity stories, and I was doing the photography, and also assisting him in the distribution of the publicity material, which as I have said many times, I came into public relations and writing through the back door. I came in starting as a photographer, and it’s been interesting in the progression as I went through the years, how things evolved. So from 1940 and up to September of ’41, I was in this publicity photography position. September of 1941, was officially established as a national park, and the Mammoth Cave Operating Committee was disbanded, and a new organization was formed, called National Park Concessions Incorporated. With a twenty year contract to operate the services and facilities of . Now in establishing this organization, they had no position for anyone in publicity work. So here again, my job was abolished. So I say, this was in September of 1941, and within a few weeks, about two or three weeks, as a matter of fact, I went to Sylacauga, Alabama, and immediately attained a position with a subsidiary of the Dupont Company, which was building powder factories and TNT factories and all that type of thing. So I was put on duty as an engineering inspector. Now, actually, while I’m not an engineer, why, my duties were relatively simple. All I had to do was to check on the overhaul of turner pools who were moving dirt from one location to another, and ‘course, if they moved it beyond a certain distance, why, they got extra pay for it. And this was my responsibility to check on that. But in the meantime, I had taken a civil service examination for a photographer. And I had only been in Sylacauga, Alabama on this job with Dupont for about three weeks when I got a wire that I had, well, asking me if I would accept the position as a photographer with the U.S. Engineers with the—at the district office in Mobile, Alabama. Well, this was uh, not necessarily an increase in salary, it was about the same amount, but it offered much more security than the job that I was on, which I knew was temporary. So I accepted the job as a photographer, and within a week, why, I’d moved on to . 6:00R: My responsibilities in that job was—I found when I arrived there that the photographic section consisted of four photographers beside myself, and a supervisor. And our duties and responsibilities were to photograph the construction of the twenty-six air bases that were underway in , , , and the northern panhandle of . And of course in addition to all these twenty-six air bases, we also had other projects like ammunition depots, there was some CAA air fields that were going up. Then there was, oh, four or five different Army camps, including , , and later on, , which was in southern part of . And that camp, which has since become a fort, was built and ready for occupancy of about thirty-thousand trainees in something like ninety days. It was incredible to see the progress of construction on that project. Now we would usually go out every two weeks and photograph from the same location in these various, on these various projects. We’d usually have, there would be a western, a western swing through parts of and , or all the projects in , and then there would be an eastern swing around the projects in and and some others, maybe in the southern part of . So it’d usually take, oh, from four to five days, essentially an entire week to make the coverage of each tour. And I say, we did the same thing every two weeks. We’d go back and shoot it again, so that the various agencies of the federal government, the U.S. Engineers, and so on, would have a complete record of what was going on. And of course, also printed on these pictures was the legend of where the project was located, the contract number, who the contractor was, the identification of the project, and say, the date the picture was taken, and all that. And quite a drastic change from my prior use with four-by-five and 35 millimeter cameras, why, I found that practically everything we were using were eight-by-ten cameras. And they were pretty heavy to lug around, especially if you had to walk over through brush or across sand and this type of thing. But, ‘course, when you got a picture, you could print it by contact, and what we had to do was to double print. We’d print the picture by masking off the area for the title, and then the title was also printed, later printed. Then the entire picture, when it was processed, would include all the information which was printed on.

K: Okay.

[cut in recording] 7:00K: This is the second side of the tape of my interview with Mr. Ray Scott. Well, when you were in the CCC as photographer, did you ever have a typical type of day? Could you describe a typical day for me? For you in the CCC?

R: Now how you mean by “typical”?

K: Like having to—You know, when you got up, and were there specific things you had to do, or did you set your own schedule, according to what they gave you?

R: Of course they varied from day to day, and sometimes, well for a while, before I went into the photography position, I was the office clerk of, you know, for the foreman, or the superintendent of the camp. And that was handling all the records and the projects and everything. You know, the clerical aspect of it. And ‘course, that was pretty routine. I knew from day to day pretty much what that was. But that didn’t last but, oh, a few months, and then I moved into this photographic job.

K: And so, everyday was basically different, you just had things you had to go take pictures of?

R: Yeah, there was a lot of variety, even in the office job. And of course, with the, after—You know, when I was assigned to the photographic activity, why, you never knew from one day to the next what your assignment was gonna be. Sometimes I knew, and sometimes I didn’t. And then ‘course there was always the lab work to be done, but we would generally know—Well, I say generally—sometimes we would know what was coming up the next day, but sometimes the forester would come and say, “I want you to go out with me on an erosion control project and make some pictures out there.” And ‘course, I’d just get my gear and we’d head out and do whatever he needed to be shot. And the same with some of the other construction foremen or superintendents. Why, they’d make a request, and we’d do whatever they needed. 8:00K: How much free time did you have?

R: Well, the most of the weekends were, um, we were pretty well on our own, unless some emergency came up. ‘Course, back in those days, the activities were limited. You know, there wasn’t too much in the way of recreation. You just had to really make your own recreation to a great degree. And of course, there was, at that time, swimming and boating in the , and trails to hike and various things. We never, I never really got bored. I mean, there was always something to do.

K: Did you ever participate in any of the organized recreation, like the ball teams or the education program?

R: Well not a great lot. I was more interested in some of the, say, the educational and training programs like the photographic lab that I set up, and working with the editor of the camp paper. I did a few things, did some writing in that, and also, did a few poems that were published. So, as I say, I really was rather innovative as far as my leisure activities were concerned. I always enjoyed reading. I read a lot of books. So it was, the camp life was actually a place where you could learn a lot. Not only from an academic phase, but especially in the field of vocational activities, your work and other things that you’d like to learn. There were plenty of opportunities to learn if you wanted to learn. And I figure that my—oh, I’d say three plus years in the three-C camps was worth an equivalent of that time in college. Although I never attained a complete college degree, I feel that my education far surpasses the knowledge of the average college graduate, because during my lifetime I have made it a practice and policy to never stop studying and never stop reading, and to seek new challenges as far as things that I wanted to learn. And this, of course has certainly worked to my advantage in activities that I became involved in in later life. After I left the camp, and so on. 9:00K: Did you spend much time in the neighboring towns? I know a lot of the boys went in for amenities and such.

R: Oh, sometimes. You know, some weekends, why, we’d go into the local towns, and there wasn’t a great lot of activities. ‘Course they had a, there were a few roadhouses scattered up and down the highways, and they provided some entertainment, music, and there was dancing. But sometimes it became a little boisterous as well. But my home was only some thirty miles away, and it was easy to get back home on weekends, which I did at least once or twice a month.

K: Did you date any girls in town ever?

R: Oh yes. I had girlfriends in the local area as well as back in my home area.

K: Do you remember any of the pranks that the boys used to play on each other?

R: Well, there were quite a few, but offhand, I don’t remember. They had one in the barracks. If a guy had the tendency to oversleep, sometimes, why, they’d, they’d just flip his entire bunk. Just turn, lift it up, and flip it over. And sometimes at night they might come in at twelve o’clock, and somebody maybe that they didn’t like to well, why, they’d just flip his bunk. [laughs] 10:00K: Was there much interaction among the different camps of the CCC?

R: Well quite a bit. There was a competition in boxing, and ball teams, and you know, things of that nature. And on—I’m just trying to think—On some projects there might be boys from two different camps working on the same project. That didn’t happen too often, because each one was pretty much on its own as far as projects were concerned. And I might mention at this point that the amount of construction and development done in , which was a project at that time, is still very evident today, some fifty years later. And in my evaluation, I don’t think that there has ever been anything done by the federal government that has been a more valuable contribution to the youth of that particular day, or even any day subsequent to that than the three-C camps. Because they offered an opportunity, not only for employment and experience and developing a vocation, but also educational experience. And the ability to, you know, get along with people, human relations, experience in travel. It was the greatest investment that the federal government has ever made in youth. And I would like to see that type of activity reinstated in this country. I think it would be very valuable. I know they’ve had the Job Corps, and what I think they call the Conservation Corps now, which is an offshoot of that. But it seems to be—that activity seems to be catering to a different level, uh, social level, more to the poverty-stricken and the uneducated. And in our camps, why, we had many people that had had two and three years of college, and some of them were even college graduates. And practically everybody in the companies that—In the initial company that I was in were high school graduates, and many many had some time in college. And even later on at the camp in , much of the same was true. However, I think it had dropped off a little, and that the educational level was probably lower at that particular time. 11:00K: You were a photographer, and you were in camp number two. Did your duties span the camps? Or were you only for number two.

R: My duties spanned the entire project. I shot pictures for the construction programs that were being accomplished by every one of the camps. It just—You know, there was a coordinator of the four camps that was in the headquarters right there at the, near the Mammoth Cave Hotel, and he coordinated all these activities. And a lot of times they would call into him, a superintendent from a different camp than number two, they’d call in and tell him what they needed, and then he’d relay it, the message to me. And we took care of whatever was needed along that line.

K: So were you the only one who was doing the photography at this point?

R: I was the only one. And ‘course with the assistance of usually one other boy that was learning the activity. 12:00K: How did the whites feel about the presence of blacks in a camp nearby? Did you notice any //

R: How did the what?

K: The white people feel about the presence of blacks?

R: Well at that time, there was some animosity, and they were generally, well, they did all—predominately, they did all their activities, you know, among themselves, and not too much athletic or, you know, competitive activities with the other camps. That was the day before all the opposition to segregation and everything that came along in the 1960s. And ‘course even in the military services, everything was segregated at that time.

K: Do you remember any particular instances of racial tension? Or was it just a general feeling?

R: No, not to my knowledge. There might’ve been a few incidents, but as I say, they were usually in their area, and as far as recreation concerned, why, they did their own thing. But I’m sure that there were a few altercations that came up, but I can’t recall any specifically at the present time. 13:00K: How did the local residents feel about the CCC being in the area?

R: Well they were—once they were established and they could see what was happening, and they became acquainted with, you know, a number of the boys in the camps, they became very much in favor of it, because it was an economic boost to their areas, as well as many of the local boys were also in the camps as well. And I remember one of my very best friends, and whom I continue to be a very good friend through the years, was from . And he and I were very close personal friends, and have continued through the years.

K: You mentioned earlier about an instance where a local resident, when you were taking a picture of their house //

R: Oh yeah, that was over in the, north of the river in , and ‘course his property was, had been condemned, because they were unable to reach an agreement with the land purchasers. So he just didn’t want to be bothered by anybody connected with this thing. Of course, naturally, he was brought into court, and I had to serve as a witness and identify the pictures as being on his farm. [chuckles] But there was no, there was no problem, ‘course, in court, because he knew that he could do nothing at that time but go through the legal process. And while we didn’t have any specific conversation, why, he didn’t seem to be hostile in any manner.

K: So maybe the hostility was more for the park service or the //

R: Oh yes, that’s right. It was generally against the park service and anybody that was doing anything at that time for them was a so-called “representative,” and so that was the idea. They just, you know, they just decided that they didn’t want to move off, and they weren’t going to be moved off by force. 14:00K: How successful do you think the CCC was in relieving the affects of the Depression?

R: Oh, I think it was one of the major segments. It got some three hundred thousand boys into an environment where that they could develop themselves physically, mentally, and educationally, vocationally. And ‘course, while the monetary remuneration was relatively small, at the same time it offered many of us an opportunity to go back to college again. I know that many of my friends, they went on back and completed college. And the ones that didn’t had learned enough that they were able to go into a vocation that was, well, much better than they would have otherwise. They might, you know, they might’ve had to just, wound up as a common labor, but a lot of these boys became experienced masons, you know, rock building, building with rock, or brick, or some of them became electricians, some of them learned plumbing, and you know, there’s just a multitude of vocations that, and trades that they were able to learn that they probably never would have otherwise. And I think that it really did have a substantial impact on the overall economy in pulling out of the Depression.

K: Do you think it really affected the economy of the local area?

R: Very definitely. It affected the economy because the, while the boys didn’t have a lot of money to spend, why, they spent, you know, what they could, what they had available to spend in the local areas. 15:00K: You talked to me a little bit ago about the contribution of the CCC to the lives of the men who were involved with it. Were there any problems with the program of the CCC, or at specifically?

R: Well, the only problems that I can recall, and see, I’m trying to look back over a fifty-year span or thereabout, or maybe a little more, was that occasionally you’d get a troublemaker in, among the boys, and he would—Well, you might say that he wasn’t antisocial, why, he enjoyed picking a fight and this type of thing. And usually, that was handled pretty well within the, you know, within the group. There’d be enough around that could take care of him if he started handling, having, creating trouble. But if there became a persistent troublemaker, why they’d just be discharged, and you know, sent out, sent back to their home. Because while there was a certain amount of discipline in the camps, it certainly was not like what it is in the military service. And ‘course there, you know, as far as cleanliness and keeping the barracks ship shape, so to speak—I’ll use a Navy term—that was a responsibility, and it had to be done, because there were leaders and assistant leaders in each barracks, and also, as far as the work crews were concerned. And it was a fairly good organization. And ‘course the—all the administrators of the camp itself were Army people, Army or Navy, or, you know, they were military. And ‘course most of them, well, they all were in the reserves. And ‘course many of them later were called into active duty as the war came along. 16:00K: Do you think the CCC made a big difference in the military during World War II?

R: Absolutely. I tell you, my three years in the three-C was, well, it was just something—You know, when I went into the Navy, I knew what to expect. And I was able to adjust immediately to this, you might say, drastic change from normal life, because of my experience in the three-C camps. Because I knew, I knew what it was like to live with a group, and in close quarters and barracks, and this kind of a situation. Well every—I met a lot of people in the service, in the Navy later on, and found that many of them had had service in the three-C’s. And without exception, they really had a very high value for what that experience in the three-C camps had done for them, as far as adjusting them to life in the military. 17:00K: After you got out of the Navy, what did you do?

R: Well we haven’t got in the Navy yet. [laughs]

K: Oh well okay, let’s get into the Navy and then tell me what you did.

R: Well after I’d been with the Engineers in , well, let me back up a little bit. I went in there, as I said, with that organization in late October, 1941. Well of course, we all know what happened December 7th, 1941. And uh, all the areas that we were covering at that time went into total security. The camps, Army camps and air bases that we had been driving into, just showing our U.S. Engineer pass, that wasn’t any good anymore. We had to get a special pass from the check-in gate from the sergeant, or whoever was in charge, and then it had to be signed by the area engineer, and then turned back in when we left the gate. And of course, this slacked off after a couple of months, but security was extremely tight most everywhere, because all these were bases that were being built for the training and development of, you know bummer fighter or whatever crews as far as the air bases were concerned. And ‘course the military, the Army camps and whatnot, they were developing training, doing advanced training. Like , they were training air troops, paratroops there. So security was very tight. We had to get a different type of pass to get in and out of a lot of these bases. And later on, I know that when Jimmy Doolittle was training at Eggland Field in , and of course, we didn’t know what was going on at that time, but we showed all the passes we had, and the guy says, “Oh is that all you got?” We said, “Yeah.” “Well they’re no good.” So they, the security was extremely tight there, and they wanted to know who we knew on the base, and we told him. He called up the major who was in charge of the U.S. Engineer activities, and he verified who we were, but we still had to take the passes in, get them signed, and return them when we came out. And then, it wasn’t until several weeks after the raid on by Doolittle that we knew that that was his crew that was in Eggland Field. That’s how tight that the security was. 18:00R: Well anyway, after a little over a year working with the U.S. Engineers, and ‘course the war had developed into some rather critical situations in the Pacific as well as in the European theatre. So there were two or three of us photographers that started talking about enlisting in the Navy. We heard that they had a program where if you had experience as a photographer, you could enlist with a rating. So one of my associates, he’d already checked it out and got the papers to enlist. And he got the classification as second-class photographer, and I thought, well hey, that sounds pretty good. That’s like a staff sergeant in the Army. Or Air Force. So the next time I was on assignment up in the Birmingham area, that was where the recruiting area was, I went in and got the information and decided I’d go ahead and sign up. So I sent it into them, and pretty soon, it wasn’t very long that I had my rating offered as a second-class photographer, and even had my station of duty. I would be assigned to the for initial assignment. So then I got, well, I already had the date that I was suppose to report for duty in Birmingham, and it was actually one day to a year after Pearl Harbor. It was December the 8th, 1942. So I had about half a dozen men going with me, and so I was assigned to escort them to the U.S Naval Training Station at . And ‘course we boarding the train there, that was the way everything traveled. Wound up there, and the company that I went into were all rated men. But we trained for, we trained for twelve weeks right during those winter months, and there’s pretty rugged snow there and everything else. And ‘course I finished up there, I wound up at Bainbridge, and Bainbridge, I was put in charge of photographing new recruits, which was a monotonous job. And after a few weeks of that, why, I wound up in another job of shooting the—this was through the ship service activity—shooting the graduating companies as they finished up, you know, so that they have a group picture to send home, and all that type of thing. So after handling that, about another six months, why, then one day I went to my commanding officer, and I said, “Look, I need to get out of here. Anybody can do what I’m doing.” He said, “Well I’m sorry to hear that. We need you here.” I said, “I’m needed a lot worse somewhere else.” So I said, “Would you release me if I request a transfer?” He said, “Well, if that’s what you want, I’ll do that.” So I went to a personnel officer who—I mean he was a chief, a good friend of mine. At that time I was first class. And I says, “Look, could you send a request for a transfer out?” He said, “Yeah, but why do you want to get out of here?” I said, “Well, I’m tired of it. I’m tired of what I’m doing.” He said, “Will your commanding officer release you?” I said, “Yeah, he’s already said he would.” He said, “Okay.” And so he put through the request, and in five days I had my orders to go to the Naval Air Station at . And so I went down there, and ‘course I was attached to the photographic department. And when I got down there, why, the personnel officer at that time was a former official with the Kodak people, and he interviewed me, and ‘course I’d already filled out a form, and I put on there that I was requesting motion picture. And he says, and of course he wanted to know how much experience. And I said, “Well I haven’t had a lot of experience, but I learn pretty fast.” And he said, “Well we’re gonna have an opening as a cameraman there pretty soon.” So he said, “I’m gonna assign you to the camera crew.” Which he did. And this was like in September of, see, September of ’43, yeah.

K: I have to switch this again real fast. Hold that thought.

[End of Tape 1]

[Beginning of Tape 2]

00K: This is the second tape of my interview with Mr. Ray Scott, and you were telling me a little bit about your experience as a photographer in the Navy.

R: Well in, on my assignment to the Naval Air Station at Norfolk, Virginia, to the photographic department, I was initially assigned as a cameraman, and this was in a crew of about five people. And we were using 35 millimeter Mitchells, predominantly, which were operated by forty-pound dry cell, or wet cell battery. And the equipment to set up one of these cameras required—there was so much, and so heavy that it required two men. Even the tripod weighed about forty pounds. And anyway, this particular type of camera was also equipped for high speed, and it could handle a top speed of 128 frames a second, which means that twelve feet of 35 millimeter film would be going through the shutter every second. And ‘course this would result in ultra-slow motion. But anyway, I learned this operation relatively quickly, and in a matter of about three months, I became in charge of the camera crew. And our activities were very very varied. All the way from photographing launchings and commissionings of aircraft carriers through flying subpatrol once a week. Each one of our camera crew members were assigned to this subpatrol squadron as the photographer once a week. And of course it’d alternate. Everybody served their term on the squadron during the week. And later on, as time went on, we, I’d eventually advanced to chief photographer, and the leading chief who was in charge of the entire division was discharged because of an eye problem, and I wound up as being the leading chief in the entire division, which included all the processing, printing, and other activities of the motion picture section. And we had a total of about thirty personnel including some twelve or fourteen waves.

2:55R: But on, following the end of the war and my discharge in February of 1946, I returned to Mammoth Cave to work as a photographer, and eventually as public relations director with National Park Concessions, Incorporated, which had expanded from the operations at Mammoth Cave during the four to five year period to five different national parks. They had, at that particular time, operations in Olympic National Park, Washington, Big Bend National Park, Texas, Isle Royale National Park, Michigan, and the Blue Ridge Parkway in Virginia and Carolina, in addition to Mammoth Cave. So the president of the company at that time, H.S. Sanburn had—We had discussed employment possibilities, so they had decided at their board of directors that they would be glad to have me come back at a certain salary and work as a publicity photographer, say initially doing photography and later moving into the publicity area and public relations area as I gained materials to use on the various parks. But in the meantime, before I left the Navy, I had two other employment opportunities. One was my civil service job, of which I had a permanent appointment back in Mobile, and another one was with the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics. Only the aeronautical position had no budget. So at the last minute, why, I decided that I’d go ahead and take the job with National Park Concessions.

5:10R: And so I came back and started to work there in March of 1986 [does he mean 1946?]. And in that position as photographer and later as director of public relations, I was with the company a total of twenty-one years, leaving in March of 1967 to go with the state of Kentucky in their travel division.

K: And then you worked at that job until when?

R: Well I started out with the state as assistant to the director. And I was in that job, oh, about a year, and then I was moved up to assistant director, a position that I was in until 1978, at which time I was appointed director. And I held this position until—let me think a moment—until 19—in July 1979, at which time a department of tourism was organized, and I was—At that time I was promoted to executive assistant to the commissioner. And I held that position until I retired in, at the end of April in 1981, at which time I started my own business in travel photography and public relations, tourism, marketing, working with a number of clients in that area on up until the present time. However, I am now spending the most of my activities in travel photography, working with some six travel magazines and at least two book publishers at this time.

7:38K: Would you say that your experience with the CCC greatly affected your life then?

R: Well I would say without a doubt that my years in the three-CC pointed my entire professional and business life in the direction in which I have gone. Because it gave me the background to move into photography and public relations, tourism, marketing, and all the related activities that go with it. And I would say without that particular experience and background, I may very well have gone in a different direction. And I am eternally grateful for that experience and what it has done for me as far as my professional life is concerned, because it has been a very exciting and fruitful experience through the years. Very satisfying with the things that I have been able to accomplish, and I can related back to those years in the three-C camps as the beginning and the motivation for this career that I’ve had for some forty-six or –seven years.

K: Well I don’t have any more questions. Do you have anything else about the CCC you’d like to tell me?

R: Well, the only thing that I would like to add as far as my three-C experience is concerned is I had mentioned earlier that I think it’s one of the greatest activities ever initiated by our federal government, and somewhere down the line, I would certainly like to see this type of activity reenacted or reestablished. Because if it was, say, only for a one-year period, I think that it could probably do more for young men during that period than any other thing that they could be involved in. And certainly, if they go into the military, it gives them a background and experience that they can draw on for any area of the military that they might ever become affiliated with.

K: Well thank you very much Mr. Scott.

R: Well it’s been a pleasure, and I know that you find the work that you’re doing to be extremely interesting.

K: Oh I know, very much.

[CONCLUSION OF INTERVIEW]