[Begin Tape #1, Side #1]
KLEE: The following is an unrehearsed interview with Tom Saunders by John Klee
for the Kentucky Oral History Commission. The interview was conducted at on September 19 at . Okay. Tom, just tell me, tell me what you're doing now.SAUNDERS: I'm attending and raising tobacco and I have a diversified farming
operation. And then, in January, I'll be attending the .KLEE: Okay, now you're . . . you came to Maysville and you're study-, studying what?
SAUNDERS: Agriculture.
KLEE: Okay. And you . . . how . . . you've been on a farm for what? All you life
or . . .SAUNDERS: Yes, sir.
KLEE: And is the property . . . it's been a . . . is this a family kind of thing?
SAUNDERS: Yes, the property was my great-grandfather's. He bought it after World
War I.KLEE: Okay, and you lived where in ?
SAUNDERS: .
KLEE: Out in , okay. Tell me about your crop this year, what you're doing.
SAUNDERS: Well, we just got through housing. Looks like it'll be about two weeks
'fore we start stripping, and we didn't have as bad a crop as they did in some places in Kentucky. I'd say we'll probably make a lot of weight. Course we had a lot of excess last year, and . . .KLEE: So you didn't put out as much?
SAUNDERS: No. It . . . it looks like our crop's gonna be an average crop. It's
not gonna be below average I don't think.KLEE: Now the . . . how many acres you put out? What your . . .
SAUNDERS: Well, myself, I put out five and a half, and then in partnership with
my grandfather and my dad, we've got about ten or eleven acres.KLEE: How do you handle the finances on . . . on a partnership like that? Does
one . . . one of you take care of it or . . .SAUNDERS: Well, more or less, we've each got our own acreages, and we take care
of that . . . finance on that. Course my grandfather gets half of it since it's his property. And then I also raise some on a . . . down in he rents for me. I get sixty-five percent.KLEE: Okay, now he owns land over there or . . .
SAUNDERS: No, he owns land on the in . I also raise his, and he hasn't got a
barn, so I house it back in our barn.KLEE: So that makes for the bigger percentage?
SAUNDERS: Yes sir.
KLEE: Now how did you . . . what kind of arrangement was that this year? Did you
lease it for so many cents a pound or . . .SAUNDERS: No, it's just . . . when the tobacco's sold, he gets thirty-five
percent and I get sixty-five percent of the money.KLEE: I see. How . . . what . . . you talked about five and a half acres? Was
that yours? The four and a half?SAUNDERS: Five and a half.
KLEE: Five and a half. What . . . how many pounds is that?
SAUNDERS: Well, this year . . . we usually make around three thousand pounds the
acre. This year, I'd say probably somewhere in the neighborhood of twenty-five, twenty-eight hundred pounds to the acre since this wasn't a good crop year. We had maybe as much as thirty-three, thirty-four hundred pounds, but it seems like the last few years, it's been declining.KLEE: Now what . . . when you're raising your tobacco, just . . . do you have to
do anything special in ? You know, around in that territory? What kind of fertilize do you use, or . . . or . . . do you soil test? And . . .SAUNDERS: Well, we soil test part of our ground, and then part of it we . . .
went over the farm and we know about what it takes. But we've found some tobacco to grow better in . A lot of people around grow 2110 . . .KLEE: 2110.
SAUNDERS: . . . tobacco . . . 2114 we've have real good luck with, but 2110
usually gets us the most weight.KLEE: I see.
SAUNDERS: And in the bottoms, we usually go with a black [inaudible] resistant tobacco.
KLEE: That much of a problem?
SAUNDERS: Well, we've never had the problem, but we've had neighbors that's had
it on all sides of us, so you know, we take precautions.KLEE: Right. You're attending college studying agriculture. What brought you to
that decision?SAUNDERS: The decision, I guess, was probably made ten years ago. That . . .
farming's all I ever wanted to do. I never . . . never really tried anything else. Never seen anything else I liked any better, so I just never tried anything else.KLEE: Why do you like farming in particular?
SAUNDERS: Well, I guess . . . first is being your own boss. You don't have a
certain way, just whatever you work . . . it's however hard you-all work, that's what you make a year. I mean, you don't do your homework, you don't get paid for it. So that . . . that's kind of like what I like about it. I . . . I don't think I could work at a public job and be satisfied, so I'll probably go on with farming.KLEE: Yeah. Now why did you decide that you needed the college?
SAUNDERS: . . . Well it was time, I feel, in agriculture when raising the crop
was the big . . . the big point in the [inaudible] but now I feel that marketing is . . . marketing management is the key in being a successful farmer, so that's mainly why I'm going to college. I'm trying to get the economics and the management aspect of it. As far as knowing how to raise the tobacco, I probably could . . . could do without the college, but I need the business end of it.KLEE: Okay, now you've been going here a couple years. Have . . . and raising
the crop the same time. Has there . . . has there been . . . do you feel like you've learned anything up to now that's really helped you in the . . . with the farming?SAUNDERS: Yes. More . . . I . . . I feel like I've received more help in the
cattle end of our farming operation than I have in the tobacco.KLEE: Sure. Tobacco's kind of got a set market.
SAUNDERS: Yeah. But I feel like when I got to the university that I'll get in on
the tobacco end of it. Really, as far as here, I don't feel like I've picked up that much . . .KLEE: From the tobacco . . .
SAUNDERS: . . . maybe some economics, but as far as the actual raising of it, I
. . . I couldn't tell you that I have.KLEE: How does it . . . how's it helped you with the cattle? Is that with when
to sell and how to sell?SAUNDERS: Well, mostly, I've had an animal science class here and that's . . .
that's what's helped me more than anything else. Dr. Barry taught it and . . . and mostly out of the book. I learned a lot of things that I have used at home since I learned about it. I believe in trying new things and I think that's helping our operation. My grandfather's older and he just kindly quit trying things, but since I started college seems like he's willing to try things . . . that I wanna try. If it doesn't work, we'll kick it out.KLEE: Now you said you ran a diverse, you were on a diversified farm. That means
what? How . . . tell me about what . . . what you do on the farm.SAUNDERS: , mainly our farm is three hundred acres. And then I rent tobacco on
the side, but no other land. And we raise [inaudible] clover hay, timothy hay, and orchard grass and alfalfa. And then we have sixty head of cattle, beef cattle. And then we have the tobacco and something new I've tried this year was a tomato crop. I had nine hundred tomato plants.KLEE: Did you?
SAUNDERS: That . . . that's mainly our operation. It's nothing big, it's just
small. We're trying to keep it well managed.KLEE: How important is the tobacco to a farmer? Say out there in this area?
SAUNDERS: Well, it's most important to us. A dairy farmer, tobacco might not be
as important to him as it would be to us, but our beef cattle are just commercial cattle and we're not selling half-price cattle or anything. We're just using it to use our pasture mostly.KLEE: Right.
SAUNDERS: Making a little money, but nothing like the tobacco.
KLEE: You said earlier that a farmer can kind of write their own ticket. What is
the . . . what kind of potential for income does a farmer have, say, when you're looking down the future and probably thinking about getting married and so forth, do you think you'll be able to take vacations and make some money? Or . . . you know, what kind of life do you look to see?SAUNDERS: Well, I look for a pretty hard life the first few years. I've had it
in my mind that I'd like to buy a farm of my own when I get out of college and then I think after . . . after I've attained my own farm that . . . that it will start looking better after the payments are made and everything. But it's a rough time for anybody that's going into farming and actually I have an advantage cause I've grown up with it. I . . . I feel like I'll make it and it might not be east at all, but I think I have got a chance of making it.KLEE: Now you think it'll be possible to buy a farm and make enough money to
make your payments from the farm?SAUNDERS: Not from the farm itself. In my mind, I feel that I'll probably buy a
smaller farm and . . . and take over the family . . .KLEE: Operation . . .
SAUNDERS: . . . farm when I get out of college. And with that, I feel like I can
pay for a small farm of my own.KLEE: So you'll be able to work on that one while you . . . you work on the
family farm and make . . . make your income from that?SAUNDERS: Yeah. Um, hmm.
KLEE: From a crop of tobacco that . . . where you have poundage yourself, say on
the farm there, how much money do you make, say, on a . . . on a pound of tobacco that sells for $1.90? Have any way to estimate that or . . .SAUNDERS: . . . Well, you really . . . it would look that you made more than you
really did because you've got depreciation on barns, sticks, machinery. As far as standing back and looking, actually what you put in, in labor and the chemicals, it would like you'd make more than you really do. But you're paying taxes on your land and everything.KLEE: Count your own labor? [chuckle]
SAUNDERS: Yeah, that's . . . that's the big thing. But actually I couldn't say
exactly how much a pound that we do make. It's probably not . . . our . . . our operation would probably make more per pound than a bigger operation cause it's . . . it's . . . more of the work's done there at home, and we don't always have a lot of labor.KLEE: Now counting the . . . you and your father and grandfather together, how
many total acres do you have?SAUNDERS: Of tobacco?
KLEE: Um, hmm.
SAUNDERS: Well, probably ten or eleven.
KLEE: Now that's . . . is that this year?
SAUNDERS: That's this year.
KLEE: Now what would it be on a . . . when you didn't have . . . when you sold
so much excess last year?SAUNDERS: Well, next year it would probably be up around sixteen, seventeen
acres. And we all get our tobacco. It's really not . . . we haven't set it yet, because I'm looking at some more to rent myself and then . . . course our poundage will go back up about two and a half acres next year on account of the excess we sold this past year.KLEE: Now how much labor . . . can you-all do most of the labor on that yourself?
SAUNDERS: Up until housing time. This year we were . . . probably had more help
housing than . . . than we ever did because my dad had the open heart surgery and that just left two of us to do the work, so . . . we run probably six or seven of us that would be . . . we's paying four or five to help us get the tobacco in, and usually we were just having like two or three in.KLEE: Now before he got sick, though, everything up until the housing, you-all
did the setting, the topping in the spring . . .SAUNDERS: Yeah.
KLEE: Course you probably rent the spraying out, I guess?
SAUNDERS: No, we . . . our tobacco's in smaller patches and we usually spray by
hand. This year, we had six acres sprayed with highboys. That's the first time we ever did that. We got our own spraying rig for a tractor that we use to apply Ridomil and insecticides in the earlier stages of growth. And then we spray by . . . with a backpack spray for suckers.KLEE: You think that . . . you like the way that works for you or you think it's
just not any more effective than a highboy? Just saves you some money?SAUNDERS: We . . . I feel that we get a better job by spraying ourselves. I've
seen where highboys have missed . . . missed rows and stuff, and that costs you money. So we feel like we do all right putting it on, especially the highboy getting twenty dollars an acre. And at that time of the year, we have time that we can go in and do it ourselves. It's not like we're rushed or anything.KLEE: Right. Now on the . . . when you-all . . . course you got plenty . . .
most of your barns are old barns, I guess?SAUNDERS: All except one. But last year, we remodeled two, so really we've just
got a couple barns that aren't in that good of shape.KLEE: Okay. Now when you say you remodeled them, did you do anything special for
the tobacco crop?SAUNDERS: Well mostly it was for the labor. We . . . our barns didn't have
nailed rails in them, so we went back and nailed the rails, put new siding on, and also, we added some more air vents for better curing.KLEE: Yeah. Right.
SAUNDERS: So most of that was just for our convenience.
KLEE: You said you had a . . . a newer barn. Was it built . . . is it a tobacco barn?
SAUNDERS: Well yes. Actually, it's probably not . . . [inaudible] most people,
it's just our newest, and I think it was built in `56. So . . .KLEE: Okay. So it's a tall . . . it wasn't . . .
SAUNDERS: Yeah, it's a taller barn than the rest of them. It's a six-tier barn.
KLEE: Gee. [inaudible] a lot of labor to get that . . .
SAUNDERS: Yeah.
KLEE: . . . get that up. Now when you . . . how . . . do you-all, when you
strip, do you bale?SAUNDERS: Yes, we have done for two years now. We do most of that ourselves.
[inaudible] on labor.KLEE: You don't do any hand tying then? It's all baled?
SAUNDERS: No. We . . . the first year that we did it, we started hand-tying it
and went to the bale.KLEE: Do you make your own balers or buy them or . . .
SAUNDERS: We made them.
KLEE: Did you?
SAUNDERS: Um, hmm.
KLEE: What do you . . . how do . . . how did . . . how'd you build yours? Use
old tire jacks or . . . car jacks?SAUNDERS: No, we . . . we found a [inaudible] on a wheel that rolled around and
just kind of like pressed it down without the jack or the air compressor. We like that real well cause we're moving from barn to barn, and these bale boxes are a lot lighter than the air compressor. Put it all in one compartment. So that's what we've been using.KLEE: So you got like individual balers?
SAUNDERS: Yes.
KLEE: How many grades you baling?
SAUNDERS: Well usually around two to three. Last year, we stripped in three
because our tobacco had a black top, real dark top and it just didn't go with the other tobacco. But it looks like this year that we'll be going with two because our tobacco's got a black top in it. There's really just two grades on.KLEE: Now on the marketing of tobacco, have . . . have your parents and
grandparents been using the same . . . you know, one warehouse, or do you-all move that business around, or how do you choose that?SAUNDERS: Well, we usually split it between a couple warehouses here in
Maysville. And this year, I think maybe I'll try a new one. We've never .KLEE: Here in town, I guess?
SAUNDERS: Yes. We've never had any problems with any warehouses or anything, but
sometimes we'll have a neighbor or something that goes to work at another warehouse and we might just take him a load of tobacco as a gesture, but as far as any difference, I . . . I've really never seen any difference in warehouses. Whatever one of them does, the other one might not do the same thing, but he'll make up for it in other ways. So we just, most of them are the same price and everything. We just . . . we just go wherever we know somebody.KLEE: Right. I see. You've got, really not . . . not a real small operation,
compared to a lot of people today. Do you think that . . . could . . . could a farmer survive in , for example, if the support program ceased? They stopped the program?SAUNDERS: Not on tobacco.
KLEE: You think the . . .
SAUNDERS: I've been . . .
KLEE: Would you say, for example, you know, you're looking ahead and you heard
this talk about whether the program's gonna last and so forth, do you think you'd stay in farming then?SAUNDERS: I would try. I would try to go to another crop or perhaps a dairy or
something if . . . if it was the only way out. Course I like tobacco myself, and I like beef cattle. But if I have to do something else to stay in farming, I'll try it. I can't say that I'd succeed or fail.KLEE: Well if the support program did end, it'd just . . . there wouldn't be any
. . . there wouldn't be any guarantee what you'd get on your tobacco.SAUNDERS: I know.
KLEE: It'd be . . . I guess people'd still grow it, but . . .
SAUNDERS: I've always felt like maybe the price would stay pretty true for four
or five years before it started to fall apart. But I feel like after it falls apart that there's no sense in even trying to raise tobacco. But I . . . I do feel like there's a . . . farmers will try to hold them together as long as they can. Course that's not gonna hold together forever. I feel like it'll hold together for a few years after . . .KLEE: Do you find, particularly with tobacco farmers, is there certain amount of
camaraderie or, you know, friendship and help? Do you . . . do you all trade off work and equipment and so forth now where you live or . . .SAUNDERS: Yes. This year, I'd say that . . . that we probably been through
twenty-five acres of tobacco in the house. Maybe . . . a couple of our neighbors wouldn't really start when we started, so they'd come and help us a couple of days. Then we went back and traded back with them after we got done. And I think this helps everybody out when you do this because so many times, labor is hard to find, experienced labor. And it's nice to have someone around that you don't have to be telling them what to do every time you turn around. They know what to do and they go on and do it.KLEE: Have you had any trouble finding labor, experienced labor? This year?
SAUNDERS: Up until this year, we never had the kind of labor that we would like
to have. But this year, we had excellent luck with the labor. And I don't ever remember having better help. We . . . you . . . you can tell when you've got good help, you're getting along a lot better, a lot faster.KLEE: What . . . what about new equipment and methods? Course, you know, you
haven't been in the business that long, but have . . . have you ever thought about, like, you know, you've seen these strippers, I'm sure.SAUNDERS: Um, hmm.
KLEE: What do you . . . anybody using them over where you're at?
SAUNDERS: I've gone one neighbor that's got one that sits in a corner.
[inaudible] He used it one year and quit. We don't go for a lot of new things, and for something new comes along that we see in the tobacco that we think'll work, we might try it. But we just don't go whole hog the first year and do it all.KLEE: Just kind of a wait-and-see?
SAUNDERS: Yeah. And up until three years ago, most of our equipment was old
equipment. I decided I was gonna go out and buy some new equipment, so I went out on my own and bought some. But .KLEE: What . . . what'd you . . . what do you mean? New tractors?
SAUNDERS: I bought a . . . I bought a new tractor myself, and then plows,
harrows, mower, and next year I think we'll probably go with a rolled baler. We've stayed with the square bales up until this year but we're looking toward a rolled baler next year.KLEE: You used the wheel setter probably?
SAUNDERS: Yes.
KLEE: Don't drop the plants?
SAUNDERS: No. We use .
KLEE: What about a rack wagon? You-all . . .
SAUNDERS: We have three, but they're rarely ever used. We don't . . . we don't
think it really saves us that much time unless it's just the three of us or something like that. We usually go back to the flatbed wagon when we got a lot of help.KLEE: Yeah.
SAUNDERS: We just see it's economical to use.
KLEE: Why . . . why is that? Just . . .
SAUNDERS: Well, it . . . always seemed to me like everybody is getting in
everybody else's way when you're trying to load or unload. So you've got to have a couple men on that thing unloading or . . . on top of it, and it just doesn't work right for us.KLEE: What do you think . . . well, I was gonna ask you, too, when you're
getting . . . do you . . . do you gas your beds in the fall or wait 'til the spring or . . .SAUNDERS: Yes. This year, they might not get gassed in the fall because of the
dry weather, which . . . methyl bromide won't work as well in dry weather. I'd say if it doesn't rain pretty soon, we'll have to wait 'til spring. We don't like to do it because we feel like we get a head start on the crop.KLEE: And when . . . when you have a problem, maybe disease or something, where
do you . . . where do you get your information? Do you . . .SAUNDERS: I usually go to the county extension office and go to the agent from
KLEE: Yeah.
SAUNDERS: On occasion, I guess, my grandfather has recognized things that I
didn't and . . . and we got it straightened out without that, but when it's something that we don't know, we just . . . we go on to the agent's office.KLEE: How important is new information to a farmer? Are farmers always looking
for new information? Are they . . . they don't . . . they wait until a problem kind of . . .SAUNDERS: Well I feel . . . I guess it's probably best for the farmer to go on
and prevent, but usually he's . . . he waits 'til it happens and then tries to do something. That happened on our blue mold when . . . everything three or four years ago.KLEE: Yeah.
SAUNDERS: But it's important to the farmer that he gets the information the next
when he starts the crop . . . [inaudible] Ridomil and all the chemicals that he should have been using.KLEE: Now did you have . . . yeah, did you have a problem with blue mold?
SAUNDERS: Not the first year. We were lucky with it. And the second year, we
went to the Ridomil, and we've never had a problem with blue mold. Last year, we had a half acre that had it bad and we don't know why. It was kindly isolated off on back in to the farm and it had Ridomil on it and everything, but still had it, so I guess it was just one of those things that happen.KLEE: When you . . . when you're gonna buy new equipment or . . . like the rack
wagons or, you know, a tractor or whatever, how do you . . . how do you make a decision that, all right, it's gonna pay me in the long run to go ahead and buy a new piece of equipment. Is that just kind of a gut feeling or do you . . .SAUNDERS: Well, mostly I'd say it is. Course everybody's got thing they like,
and a farmer I guess goes out for equipment and stuff, most of them. And when . . . when we go to buy something, we look at it and see if we need it and see how our old one's doing and everything.KLEE: So what you're saying is a lot of farmers just like to buy equipment?
SAUNDERS: Yeah, I think it's getting a lot of them in trouble. Course we like it
too, when we get something new, but we just don't have as much of it as a lot of our neighbors do. And I hope that we don't have the debts that [chuckle] some of our neighbors do.KLEE: How important . . . now you said you, you know, went to the . . . you
bought some equipment on your own. Obviously you get this financed. Are bankers pretty understanding or . . .SAUNDERS: Yeah, when I bought my tractor, it was the first thing that I bought,
and course Deere & Co. had a finance plan going at the time where I didn't even have to pay interest for three or four months. So they'd give me time to sell my tobacco and then by the time I sold my tobacco, I didn't have to run through the finance company, just went on and paid Deere & Co. But I have went to the bank on occasion and usually I've got all . . . you know, without a lot of red tape. Course my mother [chuckle] . . . my mother works at the bank where I was borrowing at, so I guess maybe that might help me.KLEE: That helps some.
SAUNDERS: And I usually, I don't make big loans. I try not to. I go for the
smaller, short-term loans.KLEE: What did . . . what kind of . . . do you do any kind of organizing . . .
organized financing? You know, you get big, big paydays, and then you don't get a payday for a long time. How do you handle that?SAUNDERS: Well I've tried . . . I always try to put as much of it away, I like
to say, where I can't get it for . . . you know, for like six months in CD's and like that. And I feel like it's probably the best thing for me because everybody sees things they like and I kind of like to have mine where I can't get it if I see something. But I just . . . mostly I try to keep enough to run it on, where I can get it. Kind of . . . usually I'll plan ahead, maybe four or five months on something big, like the tractor or something. I sort of thought about that for a year before I decided on which one, what make, and all that. And the thing is, you're trying to plan it out before . . . before you have to make a decision.KLEE: Now you're raising a lot of tobacco and lease more, and so forth. Do you
see a lot of little operators kind of going out and . . . do you consider yourself a big operator or . . .SAUNDERS: No. I think we're probably just at the state where you could call us a
larger family operation. We're not big. We don't use the big techniques or anything like that. We just . . . I'd say we're probably where I would wanna stay for maybe two years and then, myself, I'd like to go on to a larger operation. And . . . but most of the small operations around in my community are older people. And the young ones will have to get out and dig for what they get. I mean, the older ones have more or less got it made and they're . . . they're setting back just doing what they had to and . . . and the young ones'll have to get out and dig a little bit harder now.KLEE: Do you see a lot of people holding jobs and farming on the side?
SAUNDERS: Yes, my dad does that. And I have a lot of neighbors that do that. I
mean they . . . they're smaller farmers, like two or three acres of tobacco. But . . .KLEE: You're hoping to avoid that? You're hoping that you can farm full-time?
SAUNDERS: Yes. I'm . . . I've planned on trying it for two, three years, and
then I'll have my college education if it doesn't work, and I can . . . I can try something else on the side or something. But I feel like we'll make it all right.KLEE: Thanks a lot for talking to me.
SAUNDERS: Okay. Thank you.
[End Tape #1, Side #1]
[End of Interview]
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