[Begin Tape #1, Side #1]
KLEE: The following is an unrehearsed interview with Mr. David Dotson of for the
Kentucky Oral History Commission. The interview is being conducted by John Klee and we're conducting the interview at Brown's Warehouse, right outside of Russellville. The date is . Mr. Dotson, we're gonna . . . I wanna talk to you about the dark air-fired . . . excuse me, dark . . . fired dark tobacco. [chuckles]DOTSON: Fire-cured dark.
KLEE: Fire-cured dark tobacco, right. Trying to get it right. And it's kind of a
unique kind of crop to this area, isn't it?DOTSON: It's pretty much unique to the area. In northern and north central ,
it's predominantly their crop in that area and, well, the basis of dark fire-cured, it was here before the dark air-cured. And . . .KLEE: And then both of those were here before burley?
DOTSON: Correct. Burley evolved from the north central parts of . . .
KLEE: That's my territory.
DOTSON: And used to be in, like I say, as a whole, there was no dark air-cured
bases in this area. It was predominantly dark fire-cured. And during the evolution of times changing and grower techniques, and allotments were allowed to be changed . . .KLEE: Types of tobacco . . .
DOTSON: . . . according to preference.
KLEE: Oh, they were allowed to be changed according to preference?
DOTSON: Right. I mean, you could grow a . . . an allotment of dark air-cured in
the . . . say, in respect to dark fire-cured which you'd been growing over the years. Our farm in particular, as we were talking earlier, my granddaddy's ninety-three. And 'til he . . . well, he was an old man, in his early 60's before there was any dark air-cured in . . . in this area.KLEE: So it's really a fairly easy . . .
DOTSON: They all . . .
KLEE: . . . development then?
DOTSON: . . . they always raised dark fire-cured.
KLEE: So your personal history with this goes back from a youth.
DOTSON: In family, yes.
KLEE: You been growing this tobacco since you were . . . has . . . has the way
the dark fire-cured grow, has been grown, has it changed very much over the years?DOTSON: Varieties have changed as much as anything through the extension
agencies and where they've improved on the old, established varieties and come up with . . . the ones that have involved [evolved] out of, say, the University of Tennessee, and then taken roots up here.KLEE: Now, what kind of . . . the tobacco that's the dark fire-cured is a
different seed than the . . . the other types, isn't it?DOTSON: Correct
KLEE: The air-cured or the dark air-cured or the burley?
DOTSON: It has characteristics in some respect to dark air-cured with the
exception of the curing process where you use open fires or sawdust-laden wood fire to give it the proper color that's not given to the same type tobacco is it's only air-cured.KLEE: I see.
DOTSON: You can take dark fire-cured tobacco and air-cure it, and in respect to
the leaf being brown, on fire-cured, it will be a greenish tint air-cured. So without the fire and the necessary heat at the right time, you won't have the quality of leaf that you will if it was fired.KLEE: So really, if you grew that tobacco without the proper curing process, you
couldn't get very much for it, wouldn't be a very desirable tobacco?DOTSON: It wouldn't be a desirable tobacco. It would not have the
characteristics of necessarily dark air-cured or dark fire-cured because it would be an in-between cure on it. Weight-wise it would be somewhat less due to . . . due to the air curing process.KLEE: Now most of the seed's been certified through the ?
DOTSON: Well, to my knowledge, the ones we used first came out of , and were in
respect certified through the to be grown here and be offered for sale here in the state.KLEE: Do . . . do you remember any of the . . . the seed names or numbers?
DOTSON: What we raise is small-stalk black mammoth variety.
KLEE: Small-stalk black mammoth?
DOTSON: Mammoth. That's correct. It is a large leaf, small-stalk type tobacco.
And . . .KLEE: Where . . . I . . . I guess the seed is sold locally but . . .
DOTSON: Right. 's. Any of the seed growers specifically offer this type seed for
sale. And there's the old T. R. Madole, and the improved T. R. Madole variety.KLEE: How do you spell that?
DOTSON: T. R. is initials.
KLEE: Right.
DOTSON: And M-a-d-o-l-e.
KLEE: Now that's an older variety?
DOTSON: It's an older variety, larger stalk. Same quality of leaf but it takes
right smart more heat to cure it down on account of the stalk size and the stem size.KLEE: So the big development for the dark fire-cured was getting smaller stalks
so it . . . you'd need less heat?DOTSON: In some respects, yes. But disease resistant qualities in the
small-stalk mammoth tobacco is next to nothing. If you have black shank or root rot or different soil-borne diseases, you can have complications with the small-stalk variety.KLEE: Oh, so it's less disease resistant?
DOTSON: It's less disease resistant because it is a . . . a kind of a crossed
out variety that lost some of it's resistance in bringing in the smaller stalk.KLEE: So it's just a gamble which way you go. There's advantages and disadvantages.
DOTSON: If you know your ground and your farm property, you . . . you're used
to, I mean, you can take your variety to the soil and do well with it, according to what disease history you've had in the past.KLEE: Let me take you through a season because, as you just mentioned, this is
really an exclusive kind of crop to this area.DOTSON: Sure is.
KLEE: And it's . . . it's part of tobacco history and . . . and it ought to be
included. So some of these sim-, these questions might sound very simple, but they need to be. Now, when you prepare the beds, they're prepared similar to other tobaccos?DOTSON: Exactly. Exactly.
KLEE: Do you use a chemical or do you usually burn?
DOTSON: We use a chemical.
KLEE: Okay.
DOTSON: Methyl . . . methyl bromide.
KLEE: Okay. And then, of course, you sow the seed and so forth. What about the
way [phone rings] [pause in tape] . . . when you set the tobacco, how . . . is it . . . it's set differently, probably?DOTSON: Further apart than . . . the larger leaf fired tobacco can be set
farther apart. Usually thirty-six to forty inches in the row, and a thirty-eight to forty inch row.KLEE: Oh I see. Okay.
DOTSON: So it's pretty well the same as dark air-cured. Depending on the variety.
KLEE: Uh-huh. But a lot . . . a lot farther apart than the burley?
DOTSON: It . . . oh yes, a lot farther apart than burley because of the enormous
leaf size of sixteen, eighteen inches spread three, three and a half feet in length on the upper leaves.KLEE: Whew. Gee. Now this is based on acreage?
DOTSON: Correct.
KLEE: And so, now how . . . I understand you lease a lot of tobacco?
DOTSON: We . . . personally, I raise it on shares.
KLEE: Oh okay, you . . . okay. How does that . . . how does that work out?
DOTSON: Usually we raise a crop, the landowner provides everything for either
half; or us, the leaser, furnishes everything for two-thirds.KLEE: Okay, so you get two-thirds if you provide everything?
DOTSON: Right.
KLEE: If he provides everything . . .
DOTSON: It's half.
KLEE: . . . it's half. And you're providing the labor.
DOTSON: It varies from individual to individual, and farm to farm.
KLEE: Okay.
DOTSON: But that's basically the way we . . . we try to work it. Cause we're
usually leasing from farmers and being farmers, we try to be as fair as we can.KLEE: Sure. Now has this become . . . I just talked to Mr. Brown and he doesn't
raise the fire-cured. Has it become more or less a specialty by certain farmers?DOTSON: A lot of people have let their fire base evolve off the property or have
sold their bases because you have to maintain . . . maintain a different type barn and you have . . . there . . . it's labor-intensive to the extreme, as far as dark air-cured and burley.KLEE: We're not talking about a lot of different individuals here raising . . .
DOTSON: Not in the southern area, no. .
KLEE: More in northern . There's a lot more farmers . . .
DOTSON: Right. , is just the opposite with us as far as they raise dark
air-cured in lesser amounts, and dark fire-cured in the regular amounts.KLEE: I see. Okay. So you . . . you've set the tobacco, and it's farther apart.
About what time period do you set?DOTSON: It's usually between the 20th of May and the 10th of June.
KLEE: Okay. The . . . the growing season, do you not let it get as big? Or it
just doesn't get as bit naturally?DOTSON: Well, as far as the number of leaves per stalk, it will get as large as
dark air-cured. Leaf size is larger. Sometimes less leaves per stalk.KLEE: So the fire-cured has sometimes lesser leaves, but they're a lot bigger.
DOTSON: In respect, yes, to dark air-cured.
KLEE: Okay. Is it topped down pretty low?
DOTSON: Twelve to fourteen leaves.
KLEE: Twelve to fourteen leaves?
DOTSON: That's the only way the . . . the dirt [inaudible] . . .
KLEE: It . . . it seems to me, you know, the plants being spread out a little
more than the burley, you're topping it down further, are you not making as much money or . . . or are the leaves way up?DOTSON: Well in respect, it will weigh heavier, ripened tobacco will weigh
heavier than dark air-cured. Twenty-six to 2800 pounds to the acre is . . . is the norm.KLEE: For . . .
DOTSON: That's in going for snuff-type tobacco or chewing-type tobacco. Cigar
wrappers will weigh less: 1800 to 2000 pounds.KLEE: But they'll bring a little more money?
DOTSON: They will bring over the $2.00 mark.
KLEE: Oh I see. Now, do you make a conscious decision when you're doing it?
DOTSON: Everybody does.
KLEE: You're either gonna raise cigar wrappers or you're gonna . . . you're
gonna raise snuff.DOTSON: For snuff or the chewing [inaudible].
KLEE: Now how do you . . . how do you do that?
DOTSON: In . . . personally, I try to split the middle and sort by tobacco
according to what it is. Most of the time, it's snuff to chewing. Export.KLEE: Oh you . . . you make . . . you make the decision at the end when you're
stripping it out? You try to separate it.DOTSON: Well, you make the decision when tobacco's cut, when it's harvested.
KLEE: I see.
DOTSON: You let it stand 'til it's fully ripe. It will be heavy-bodied and it's
more snuff to chew. You cut it early . . . four weeks, no more than four weeks from topping, you're cutting weight, but an exceptional quality, nets you out approximately the same money.KLEE: So you'll see that out in the field, and you'll say, now these leaves look
good . . .DOTSON: That's right.
KLEE: . . . I'm gonna . . . I'm gonna try to make this wrapper tobacco.
DOTSON: If you can make a wrapper crop, course you will break the $2.00 mark on
the price per pound and course your yield will be 1800 to 2000 pounds, but dollar per dollar, if you hit it right, you will come out ahead in the wrapper, going wrapper.KLEE: Sometimes you can't tell, though, can you? I mean . . .
DOTSON: You can take a wrapper crop to the barn, get it too hot, put the green
tint to it . . .KLEE: And that's it.
DOTSON: . . . that's right. It's automatically snuff.
KLEE: It's all . . . it's all a gamble then, isn't it?
DOTSON: It's a gamble. It's a gamble from the day you gas that plant bed.
KLEE: Okay. So in the middle of the season, then, like you said, you . . . at
some point, you make this decision, I'm gonna cut early and try to have the wrapper or I'm gonna let it go and we'll just have snuff tobacco. After that decision's made, is this . . . is this tobacco, the dark, fire-cured tobacco handled any different, taking it to the barn and cutting it?DOTSON: I'm an old . . . I'm an old-timer in respect to cutting. We still split
our stalk from top to midway.KLEE: Is that right?
DOTSON: And of course that age in curing . . . cuts your curing time. It's . . .
we handle our tobacco the same: one's dark air-cured, dark fire-cured. It's handled just exactly alike.KLEE: And you do grow some dark air-cured yourself?
DOTSON: Oh yes. Um, hmm. I raise all three varieties.
KLEE: Oh you do? Okay. But you split the tobacco?
DOTSON: Yes sir.
KLEE: Drape it over a stick?
DOTSON: Drape it over the stick, six stalks to the stick, and course that aids
in getting that [inaudible] extra [inaudible]. Raising the small-stalk variety, you cut your curing time by nearly . . . anywhere from three to five days.KLEE: I see. Now you do that only for the dark fire-cured or are you splitting .
. .DOTSON: And the dark air-cured.
KLEE: Yeah, you . . . you don't . . . you don't split the burley?
DOTSON: No.
KLEE: Okay.
DOTSON: It's over the spike.
KLEE: Right.
DOTSON: Most people have left splitting over the years because their fathers are
no longer with them to show them how to do it, or they're never around people that . . . that practice it, but it . . . it comes natural to me after doing it twenty-five years.KLEE: Right. But they aren't very many left that split around here?
DOTSON: Very few.
KLEE: Yeah.
DOTSON: People can, if they just pay attention.
KLEE: Take the time and do it right. [chuckle] Are there . . . the dark
air-cured, there are a few people still split it, too, you're saying?DOTSON: Oh yeah.
KLEE: Okay. But . . .
DOTSON: I mean, they're . . . they're getting in smaller numbers every year
because . . . ninety percent of the reason is . . . is hired help. You cannot find hired help that will just take a splitting knife, go right to the field, and take . . . know what they're doing.KLEE: Sure.
DOTSON: Spiking crews are hard . . . well, are hardly . . . I don't say as
careful as a splitting crew, but splitting crews are hard to find.KLEE: Yeah. I'm sure that's . . .
DOTSON: Pretty much . . . pretty much in the family type swapping work. That's .
. . that's the way we get it done.KLEE: Your family, putting all the tobacco together, how much tobacco you raising?
DOTSON: Burley, dark air-cured and dark fire-cured, it's about twenty acres.
KLEE: I see.
DOTSON: Cause I work public work.
KLEE: And you're working on the side, too?
DOTSON: Right.
KLEE: Do . . . do you . . . is that pretty much a necessity? Make a living?
DOTSON: Right now it is a necessity in farming in general. Supplemental incomes
are handy as they can be.KLEE: Sure.
DOTSON: Tobacco farmers . . . you probably already explained . . . have been
explained by Bradley Brown that even tobacco has fallen upon its hardest times in years. And dark fire-cured is . . . is no exception.KLEE: No, it . . . there are some . . .
DOTSON: I mean, there is a . . . a steady overseas market for our quality
tobacco, but with the monetary system being like it has, and the exchange rate, it has suppressed the dark fire-cured export.KLEE: Oh I see. Our . . . our . . . our high dollar then has encouraged other
people to . . .DOTSON: Mostly from . . .
KLEE: . . . they're buying African tobacco then?
DOTSON: Right.
KLEE: Let me get back to the process then. So you take . . . take quite a bit of
care. You split that tobacco . . . that . . . that sounds so strange to somebody from the burley area because that sounds like ancient history. Is that . . . is that an extra problem? Doesn't . . . don't those stalks slide off that stick and . . .DOTSON: . . . It just depends on the individual handling it, and knowing that
they will slide, and from the . . . say the . . . the scaffold wagon into the barn and once it's resting on tier poles it's . . . it's . . . it's there.KLEE: Now you use mostly the . . . the rail wagons?
DOTSON: Right.
KLEE: You don't use the flat wagons much.
DOTSON: No. Not in . . . it's too much of a chance for bruising the leaf. And
good, wilted tobacco, it won't damage it to, oh, a very small extent, but we like the mobility of the rail scaffold wagons.KLEE: Now you been using those, then, for several years?
DOTSON: Since the middle 60's.
KLEE: Oh, okay. So they caught on here and stayed on, then.
DOTSON: They caught on here and are here to stay, I hope.
KLEE: Yeah, well, you know . . . course again, that was something that I think
caught on for awhile in some of the burley areas, but then people quit using them.DOTSON: We use them in burley only as a necessary have-to. Get . . . get it up
before it would get rained on or something like this.KLEE: But . . . but using most . . . almost exclusively with the dark fire-cured
and the air-cured, dark air-cured . . .DOTSON: Cause it adds mobility and also protection for the leaf.
KLEE: So you have . . . the hanging of the dark tobacco is a little more
involved and a little more careful again?DOTSON: Well, we try to be careful. We're . . . we want a buyer to come to our
barn, excuse me Bradley, we sell in the barn.KLEE: Now you sell both kinds, the air-cured and dark . . .
DOTSON: Dark air-cured and dark fire-cured . . .
KLEE: I mean the fire-cured.
DOTSON: . . . off the farm. We've got a . . . companies that seek out our crop
as a better crop.KLEE: That's right.
DOTSON: Than the average. Now, there's good tobacco comes through the warehouse
market . . .KLEE: Oh yeah, I know.
DOTSON: . . . but they are searching the country for some of the better tobacco.
KLEE: Now you . . . the barn itself.
DOTSON: Right.
KLEE: Now you've got it to the barn. Tell me about the . . . the fire-cured
barns. How are they different from . . .DOTSON: Most of your air-cured barns are . . . the cracks are left open between
the boxing plank, around the outside.KLEE: Right.
DOTSON: On the fire-cured barns, they're stripped, either underneath the boxing
or on the outside of the boxing. The barns are as airtight as you can make them.KLEE: Seal them as much as you can.
DOTSON: Right. Then later, ventilators in the top.
KLEE: There are ventilators in the top?
DOTSON: And they are a most.
KLEE: Okay, yeah, I bet.
DOTSON: Cause . . .
KLEE: Now you . . . you're talking about a natural kind of ventilator. You don't
. . . you don't . . . talking about the electricity and . . .DOTSON: No.
KLEE: . . . fans pull on it . . .
DOTSON: Naturally open. Hand open and .
KLEE: Now do you actually go around and caulk these things? You know, caulk or
[inaudible] . . .DOTSON: Not really a caulking as such, but there are stripped with wooden . . .
wooden strips, just like the outer boxing plank. They're thinner and narrower, just enough to cover the crack between the boxing planks on the outside of the barn. And that's to prevent air from coming in and also the smoke from . . . and heat from the fires, from getting out.KLEE: Yeah. Course there's bound to be some draft and that's what fuels the fire.
DOTSON: Right. You get draft underneath your doors or . . . where there's . . .
like I say, there needs to be some ventilation or air penetration for the combustion process.KLEE: Right. Okay, now you've hung that tobacco. When do you start firing it?
DOTSON: Usually three to five days after it reaches the barn or the barn's full.
KLEE: Okay. So you leave it in there and then five days later . . .
DOTSON: That's right. It's . . . the barn's doors are open so the tobacco can
air, and the top ventilator open also while you're actually running open fires or sawdust covered fires.KLEE: Um, hmm. Now tell me about that. You just . . . you go in there and . . .
course your tobacco is hanging down up to about what? Six feet or eight feet?DOTSON: It's . . .
KLEE: [inaudible] fire so it . . .
DOTSON: . . . usually head level on myself is just under six feet and I would
just barely touch the . . .KLEE: Tobacco, okay.
DOTSON: . . . leaf. The tobacco's already started to yellow. If it's a good ripe
tobacco, a good ripe crop.KLEE: Now when this was cut down in the field, it's three or four feet high,
that's all it is?DOTSON: That's right. That's all it is. Approximately waist high.
KLEE: Okay. And so it doesn't . . . very little of that tobacco touch each other
because those . . . you know, the rafters are spaced plenty apart?DOTSON: Right. They're spaced . . . most of them are spaced thirty-two inches,
thirty-two, thirty-four inches.KLEE: Okay. So it's smaller . . . it's a smaller distance than you see in a
burley barn.DOTSON: Sure. Nearly half the distance.
KLEE: Oh, I see. Okay. And most of these barns built years ago, I guess?
DOTSON: There again, it goes back to my family heritage. My great-grandfather
built barns in south and several of them still standing. My granddad and dad have built barns on their own property and neighbors. And these . . . these barns, a lot of them are still there and have been there fifty and sixty years in time. And nearly all of them that were built in our neighborhood was stripped. Even the dark air-cured barns were stripped to cover the cracks because they evolved from dark fire-cured into the dark air-cured. But the . . . the rails that the sticks of tobacco rest on are thirty-, thirty-four inches apart top to bottom. And we hang our tobacco on every . . . every tier. And that way the tails from the tier above hand between two sticks in the tier below.KLEE: I see. So they do lap a little.
DOTSON: They would be lapping . . .
KLEE: [inaudible]
DOTSON: . . . considerably.
KLEE: Oh okay.
DOTSON: Every other tier is housed at . . . each time, the odd numbers are run
and the even numbers are run, and that way, each stick is staggered between the two below it or the two above it.KLEE: Now let me . . . let me . . . run that by me again.
DOTSON: Okay.
KLEE: Are you actually skipping a space then, is that what you're telling me?
DOTSON: You skip every other tier as you come down.
KLEE: Uh-huh.
DOTSON: All right. And then you . . .
KLEE: You go back in there . . .
DOTSON: . . . go back in there with the ones in between and that way every other
stick is between the two . . . the two above it and is hanging between the two below it.KLEE: I see. Okay.
DOTSON: And it allows even temperature flow for the all the sticks, top . . .
top to bottom. The heat has to travel in and around the tobacco to take the moisture out of it and travel on to the top.KLEE: Okay. You've got this in there shingled just right . . .
DOTSON: Right. Approximately eight inches apart.
KLEE: Yeah, now you . . . you go in there and . . . and what kind of fire do you
build? You don't want a very big fire.DOTSON: No, not on the start. Tobacco's barely yellow. I mean it's hard to . . .
to "blue" it as we call it or turn it green with too much heat, but you have to start them regular and slow. You warm that barn to about ninety-five degrees air temperature at head level. And as your tobacco starts to turn brown and the yellow leaves it, you keep increasing your heat, increasing your heat, and pretty soon you can take your fire in there, bed your fires with sawdust, slam the door on it and let 'er . . . let 'er go.KLEE: Get as hot as you . . .
DOTSON: Hot as you . . .
KLEE: . . . as hot as you will go.
DOTSON: . . . cause the stem's about the only thing left, and you continue to
keep firing this tobacco with the open fire or bedded fire with sawdust 'til the stem . . . until the stem's gone.KLEE: Now, you know, anybody's got a fireplace knows that you've got to keep
working at a fire. What do you . . . do you have a whole line of little fires?DOTSON: A line of fires. You can either make them individual and ring them with
sawdust and two sticks of wood pushed together. Or a lot of them since the sawmill industry is close by, they take slabs from the sawmill and lay them in a wind row and ignite it about once every four feet. Bed that fire. Bed all the slabs in sawdust and the sawdust continues the burning process. And also keep the fire from burning out of control too much.KLEE: Isn't that . . . isn't that an expensive proposition or can you get this
stuff fairly low cost or . . .DOTSON: Slabs are . . . a truckload of slabs are thirty dollars. And that's all
you can pile on. They're banded together usually in eight foot lengths and a bundle's four feet across, eight by eight feet long, and a truck load is probably four to five bundles, and will probably cure two aces of tobacco.KLEE: Oh, okay, so . . .
DOTSON: Sawdust is getting harder to find cause it's in so much more demand.
KLEE: Is that right? [chuckle]
DOTSON: More . . .
KLEE: They're using it for different kinds of things?
DOTSON: Right. They're using it . . . a lot of them use it in the dairy industry
to bed calves with. The sawmills nowadays, a lot of them are chipping their slabs. Their slabs are getting harder to find unless you speak for them ahead of time, and the sawdust, there's so many people in line from . . . in this area. They come up into from to get the 'dust because the lumber business . . . there's not enough to keep up a lot of times, especially in the . . .KLEE: During that time period . . .
DOTSON: . . . summer, or later summer when everybody's wanting to get everything
ready for the curing season.KLEE: Well, do you stockpile ahead then? Put the sawdust in the barn?
DOTSON: I try to get my sawdust about the first of June when everybody's
combining. That way, their trucks are tied up and I can get mine then.KLEE: [chuckle] So reviewing that . . . that process, you start out with low
fires . . .DOTSON: Right.
KLEE: . . . and you watch the tobacco cure?
DOTSON: Right.
KLEE: And the more cures, the hotter the fires can be until you ultimately . . .
when there's nothing but stem left, you can just heat it up . . .DOTSON: That's right. Warm it up. But you always know to . . . the fire-cured
tobacco in a barn cures from the top down cause that's where the heat accumulates the most. Now you can watch the bottom and get a general idea. If you're taking care of the bottom tiers, the top tiers will take care of theirselves cause the heat re-, being regenerated from the roof down.KLEE: Okay. So you kinda watch the bottom, whatever it's doing, up above that's better.
DOTSON: In the cure. Even doing better.
KLEE: What . . . what can go wrong in this process? If you get too hot at the
beginning . . .DOTSON: Too hot at the beginning, you've most likely have set a green color on
the lower tier.KLEE: And that's . . .
DOTSON: Would have to be . . . it would have to be stripped to itself and the
sale would be hurt. It's about the . . . worst thing that can happen. The second worst thing is not having enough heat, getting houseburn, stem damage, and leaf damage from not enough heat. Not when it needs it the most.KLEE: How long does this heating process last?
DOTSON: Oh, in good, ripe, full-size tobacco . . . five to ten days.
KLEE: That's all?
DOTSON: That's all.
KLEE: Just watch that fire for five or ten days.
DOTSON: It's a constant process to keep the heat . . . keep it regular from five
to ten days. Depending on the weather season. The outside. If it's inclement, raining, it may go longer. And . . . but if it's dry and arid time, it could be less.KLEE: Now I guess the obvious question is, do very many people lose their barns
doing this?DOTSON: Somebody loses one every year.
KLEE: Is that right?
DOTSON: There's multiples of them that's either left unattended, the wind get
up, not take the proper attention. Get them too hot and not know it and . . . broken stick fall into a fire, and there you get a flash fire from the stick of tobacco that's fell, or you can . . . a barn without ventilators, and you have the natural gas leaving the tobacco, accumulating at the top of the barn, and blow one up.KLEE: And there are some people try that? To fire-cure in a barn that isn't
properly ventilated?DOTSON: That's correct. You get a gas accumulation in the upper part of the
barn, and I have seen them burn the top tiers out of the barn and the lower tiers never be hurt.KLEE: Is that right?
DOTSON: That's right. The leaf will just disintegrate and fall down through
green tobacco.KLEE: Now after that ten days, are you ready to strip then?
DOTSON: Oh no.
KLEE: Oh okay. Well let me . . . let me continue there then.
[End Tape #1, Side #1]
[Begin Tape #1, Side #2]
KLEE: This is side two of a tape with David Dotson. Talking about dark
fire-cured tobacco. Now, you said it's not done then after it's . . . after the heat's done?DOTSON: No, you just . . . just started on fired tobacco.
KLEE: Okay.
DOTSON: It's . . . dark fired tobacco is . . . it's grown and cured for a
specific market. And what they're . . . what the market demands from this type of tobacco is a type of flavor, aroma for the . . . for the nose. Different type of flavor for taste. And the smoke is actually what gives this tobacco that aroma and . . . and flavor.KLEE: Now when you're talking about it's for a specific market, you're talking
about not only there's specific companies that want it . . .DOTSON: Right.
KLEE: . . . and for specific purposes . . .
DOTSON: To blend it for either pipe or chewing, snuff, whatever. And . . .
KLEE: Well what . . . who are some of those companies that want it?
DOTSON: United States Tobacco Company. R. C. Owen Tobacco Company over in . They
are usually either processing it into twists of their own manufacture of they're purchasing it for the export market. And . . .KLEE: Now, there's . . . there's not very much of this grown.
DOTSON: In . . . in respect to southern , , no. . . . several thousand pounds,
several million pounds are raised in northern and north central .KLEE: Okay, but now is . . . this is a different tobacco than the flue-cured in
the south?DOTSON: Correct.
KLEE: Okay. So we're talking about with . . . with northern and this little bit
in , that's about it that's grown . . .DOTSON: That's about it. Except for the foreign . . . South African tobacco.
KLEE: Now there is . . . there has been some grown in . . . there is some
foreign competition then for the dark fire-cured?DOTSON: That's right. Quality is lacking. Sub-, it will substitute, though. And
foreign buyers, because of the extra expense that they incur buying tobacco, substitute South African.KLEE: Has that foreign market been around very long?
DOTSON: That foreign market's been there a good while because most of it used to
come out of what was the . I don't know what it is now . . . that country's evolved into. But we particularly have hit an export market on what we've raised for the last three or four years that goes to . And it is a particular type of chewing tobacco that the Danish have taken up.KLEE: Picked up, okay. There's nothing special that you have to think about.
They just have kind of come to like this tobacco?DOTSON: That's correct. It's . . . they have a broker that buys it here in the
to their quality specifications. They want a certain quality because they want to do a . . . do . . . into a certain job. They want to twist it or roll it or grind it into a certain type of blend for them or certain type use. And it's worked out great for us.KLEE: Um, hmm. So the dark fire-cured market is . . . is pretty stable and
there's not a whole lot going into government support programs and that kind of thing.DOTSON: The lower grades that are purchased through warehouse market are still a
problem to the . . . as far as going in the pool, under government loan. But the upper grades, snuff companies can take those and make them into their twist wrappers, their twist tobacco, grind the lower grades and put them into snuff. They've got a use for everything that they buy.KLEE: Now the dark . . . let me go back . . . I'll get to that question in a
minute, but let me go back. That tobacco that has had the fire on it, what do you do next to it?DOTSON: Next you burn only sawdust.
KLEE: Oh, you burn only sawdust, okay.
DOTSON: You're putting a smoke finish and more . . . the more smoke shine, the
more smoke flavor it has, the more quality shows out of it. You're actually just dressing it up to make it more attractive to a . . . a fire tobacco buyer.KLEE: Now what's that tobacco look like in the barn, after the . . . after the
fires have been in there? Is it . . . you got a smoky color?DOTSON: It's got a satiny sheen to it that is actually the smoke from the fire
and the sawdust that's been burnt.KLEE: And then the sawdust after that gives it even a slicker . . .
DOTSON: Even more. Even more. You . . .
KLEE: Okay. How long's that sawdust treatment last?
DOTSON: You . . . course this day and time, the tenth of October, have already
started putting smoke on it. And I'll carry it whenever the weather's favorable. The tobacco needs to be encased, in order, viable, soft . . . the more smoke it will take on it.KLEE: Oh, so . . .
DOTSON: Every time it comes in, I apply more smoke.
KLEE: Okay.
DOTSON: I got sawdust in the barn . . .
KLEE: Ready to go, huh?
DOTSON: . . . straw underneath the 'dust to set it off. All I got to do is roll
my sawdust over on top of the straw, light 'er up.KLEE: You'll do that every time it's encased now for how long?
DOTSON: Approximately the fifteenth of December.
KLEE: Oh, okay, so you keep . . . every time it comes in . . .
DOTSON: That's right.
KLEE: . . . or as much as you can keep up with it, you'll . . . you'll put some
smoke, some more smoke, on it.DOTSON: Right.
KLEE: That keeps improving the quality.
DOTSON: Improving the quality. It'll improve lesser quality tobacco 'til it's .
. . I won't say it will substitute for higher quality tobacco, but it will . . .KLEE: Help out [chuckle] . . .
DOTSON: . . . it'll give it every advantage.
KLEE: Right. I see.
DOTSON: But . . .
KLEE: And by the middle of December, then, you're ready to start stripping?
DOTSON: I'm ready to get that barn down and start to work on it.
KLEE: Okay. Now how do you . . . how . . . how does that process go?
DOTSON: Well . . .
KLEE: I was talking to Mr. Brown about the . . . about the dark air-cured. He
used the same kind of terminology on that. For example . . . you know, with the top leaves being called leaf?DOTSON: Correct.
KLEE: Okay.
DOTSON: It's grades . . .
KLEE: The seconds and trash . . .
DOTSON: Seconds and trash and . . . and throwaway.
KLEE: So it's stripped out very much like the other dark tobaccos?
DOTSON: In accordance to how . . . how it's sold, as a rule. You have some
companies that will let you sort your tobacco and put the leaf and the seconds together.KLEE: Oh, okay.
DOTSON: According to what price they offer you, or to what market they are
trying to meet.KLEE: Now the dark fire-cured farmer is in a curious situation cause he can't
sell at a warehouse in .DOTSON: That's correct. They have no market.
KLEE: Okay. There's not market. You can take it to .
DOTSON: Correct.
KLEE: Now has your family done that?
DOTSON: Yes. Numerous times.
KLEE: And you've also sold it directly off the farm?
DOTSON: Correct.
KLEE: Now, that's the way you've been doing it in recent years?
DOTSON: In recent years. Here the last ten years.
KLEE: Okay. Now is there one company that you kind of depend on to come back
every year?DOTSON: We . . . solicit one company. And if we don't have exactly the type that
they're looking for, and we have more than one that . . . that, you know, gives us at least a look or an advantage, knowing the type of tobacco we raise and will give it a look. And if it'll work . . . work for them, they'll show their interest by offering a contract.KLEE: Okay. So now you know in advance the company you've been dealing with, you
know how to strip it out in reference to what they've been wanting. Do they let you know in advance?DOTSON: They usually come to the barn and take stalks unstripped and look at the
quality or the lack of quality, which ever, and offer according to their use or their contract that they've got with the buyer. They're usually order-buying, and filling a certain need.KLEE: I see. And most of these company representatives come out to your farm,
are they local people that work for the company? Are they . . . course, you know, this is kind of a specialty. Are they trained to get buyers that deal in other markets or . . .DOTSON: Oh, usually they're individuals that raise tobacco and live right here local.
KLEE: I see.
DOTSON: Been with these people for several years.
KLEE: Okay. So you know the individuals and . . .
DOTSON: As a rule, know the individual and know generally what he's . . . what
type of tobacco he's looking for.KLEE: They're going for, uh-huh.
DOTSON: And if . . . they usually have orders for different qualities of tobacco
and . . . to fit different needs, and have usually got a contract to . . . to fill that need, and they go out and hunt enough pounds to fill it.KLEE: Now you're . . . all that tobacco's hand-tied?
DOTSON: Or bundled.
KLEE: Or . . . or what?
DOTSON: Bundled.
KLEE: Or bundled? And so there's not particular way that the . . . since you're
dealing directly, you know, they . . . they can tell you what they want or . . .DOTSON: Right. And how they want it stripped. And how they want it tied [inaudible].
KLEE: Now what do you mean by bundle? Like, is that like the same as sheets that
you see?DOTSON: No, it's usually a single leaf bundle. In dark tobacco, it'll weigh
thirty-five to fifty pounds.KLEE: It's smaller than a bale, then?
DOTSON: Right. About a half bale.
KLEE: About a half a bale. You use the baling boxes the same way?
DOTSON: We usually use a rack. And it's similar to a bale box, only it's open
all the way around. It's just a rack with . . . that you . . .KLEE: Stack it in there.
DOTSON: . . . stack 'er in there. Just one leaf, single leaf and tie it up with
cotton string.KLEE: Stripping rooms are pretty complicated around here, then, cause you got
bales and I guess people hand-tie them, and then you might be doing something else too.DOTSON: That's right. It just depends on what you've got, what they want and how
they want it done.KLEE: One thing I didn't ask you in the growing process, and let me go back to
that for a minute, the . . . the dark air-cured around here is one-sucker tobacco.DOTSON: Correct.
KLEE: What . . . this dark fire-cured tobacco, does it . . . you have trouble
with suckers on it?DOTSON: It suckers like burley.
KLEE: So you got a lot of suckers?
DOTSON: Two suckers per leaf joint
KLEE: But now the . . . the chemicals you use pretty much takes care of that?
DOTSON: Yeah. Yeah.
KLEE: You don't have . . .
DOTSON: Same as burley and dark air-cured.
KLEE: Don't have much problem.
DOTSON: But if you miss, you got trouble. [chuckles]
KLEE: Okay. And of course, you have to bend a lot.
DOTSON: Bend a lot . . .
KLEE: Cause you're . . . whole lot shorter tobacco.
DOTSON: We're a lot closer to the ground.
KLEE: Okay. How's that relationship . . . you been raising it since your
grandfather, or your . . . your family's been raising this dark fire-cured. Has that been the relationship long-term? People coming to the barn and buying it?DOTSON: Well . . . in respect, I guess, it's evolved off of the warehouse market
where it used to be that . . . that growers knew the buyers. They saw them on the floor market every year. And . . . in respect, this just . . . quality, I guess, has drove some of the warehouse buyers to the country. Made them selective.KLEE: Okay. Do . . . do you ever feel slighted in any way? You know, do . . .
cause, you know, one buyer might come to you and buy some . . . some tobacco at your barn and then another buyer buys some at another barn, and you find out the neighbor got more money or . . .DOTSON: Not really. Usually more or less, price-wise, most time, it's revolved
around quality.KLEE: Okay. And everybody, I guess, pretty much knows what everybody else is
getting and . . .DOTSON: That's pretty well right. Only difference is, they might be offering for
. . . for a certain contract, another company or another export order that they've got may allow them to pay more money at a certain time than . . . than . . . than another.KLEE: Would the price then vary during the season sometimes?
DOTSON: Sure.
KLEE: Oh, okay.
DOTSON: It can.
KLEE: So you might . . .
DOTSON: Well, you sell early and the tobacco's not there to fill these
contracts, they may up the money to attract some more people . . .KLEE: Later in the season?
DOTSON: Right. I mean, if they found out that there's not enough quality tobacco
out there to fill what they need, they may up the price and try to grow enough tobacco to fill their need.KLEE: Now this dark fire-cured, do you have that ready to sell before Christmas
or . . .DOTSON: No.
KLEE: . . . usually after . . .
DOTSON: The floor market usually sets the country market and it doesn't open up
until the seventeenth of January I do believe.KLEE: Now, that . . . and that's in ?
DOTSON: That's in .
KLEE: So the . . . the dark fire-cured doesn't open until the middle of January?
That process is stretched out because of all the extra steps and . . .DOTSON: As a rule, it follows behind the dark air-cured market because those
warehouses in sell all three types: burley, dark air and dark fire.KLEE: So by that time, their floors are filled with less of the burley and the
air or dark . . . or the dark air-cured tobacco . . .DOTSON: Right.
KLEE: . . . and there's more room for the fire-cured?
DOTSON: Right.
KLEE: And you're . . . you said in . . . in northern , there's a lot more of the
dark fire-cured than there is the . . . the dark air-cured?DOTSON: In respect, yes.
KLEE: How has that market gone the last few years? Has the price fluctuated?
DOTSON: The warehouse market is . . . has fluctuated somewhat. Selective buying
in the country has . . . well, it's been pretty well steady as far as the snuff companies buying.KLEE: So there's still a pretty steady demand for the dark fire-cured?
DOTSON: Oh, it's . . . I believe it's gonna be there for a long time yet to come.
KLEE: Is that because there's more people into the snuff or because of the . . .
some of the foreign markets really picking up or . . .DOTSON: The foreign market hasn't hurt us any. The snuff popularity is . . . has
helped some companies that are predominantly producing snuff. And snuff tobacco is a whole lot easier to grow for these companies, because it . . . it doesn't need quite the care that . . . that your better leaf and cigar wrapper does.KLEE: Well, what's happened to the . . . the government leases then? Have . . .
have there . . . have they increased those? Decreased them over the last few years or . . . if . . . if there's a steady . . . steady market, you don't see the leases getting bigger, do you?DOTSON: No, acreages actually have been cut. But as far as producing more pounds
per acre, now the norm has kept up, even with the cuts, with the demand for that dark fire-cured type tobacco cause, you know, more people are going to snuff. More people to chewing and . . . and that increased dark air and dark fire-cured popularity right on.KLEE: What about the . . . the farmers? You know, you've already mentioned a
couple of skills that not very many people have, and of course the extra care. Are there . . . are there gonna be people in the next ten, twenty years that'll be growing this dark fire-cured?DOTSON: It'll be grown if there . . . if the government continues their program
of price support, and [phone rings] [inaudible] open up the [phone rings] . . .KLEE: Go ahead . . .
DOTSON: . . . doesn't open up the acreage allotment system. Just don't drop the
price support and open the acres wide open cause the popularity of fired tobacco, as far as growing it, isn't all that great because of the extra man hours.KLEE: Right.
DOTSON: And every time a farmer loses a barn to fire, very few of them are being replaced.
KLEE: Being rebuilt.
DOTSON: That . . . that grower will probably lease his crop to another grower
for another year because the price of the dark fired barn is anywhere from sixty-five hundred to eight, ten thousand dollars, getting one built.KLEE: I don't understand how the price support system works with the farmers
that sell on the farm. You're still, after it is [inaudible] at some point, there's still a guaranteed price there for you?DOTSON: No.
KLEE: There's isn't?
DOTSON: No.
KLEE: You're gone. You're out of the process.
DOTSON: We pay the government grade. And we pay the . . . pay the no-net cost,
whatever's been set. Our tobacco is graded by a government grader sometime during this processing period. Not as we deliver it.KLEE: And then that's reported back to you, how much your fee will be or . . .
DOTSON: Well, I mean, it . . . the fee is already set at so many dollars per
hundred pounds, as it . . . as it's scaled.KLEE: Okay.
DOTSON: As it's scaled, we pay a no-net cost over our grading fee. We pay the
grading fee, even though it's not graded as it would be at a warehouse.KLEE: I see. So it's kind of a . . . the system's still in there.
DOTSON: Right. The system affects us just like on an off-the-farm sale as it
would a warehouse sale. Only difference is no floor charging.KLEE: Okay. What about the . . . does . . . is . . . have . . . are there
pinhookers then in the area? Are there people that try to be intermediaries between you and the . . . the companies?DOTSON: Well, usually the companies that we deal with have individuals that have
bought tobacco in the country for them for years. And they do it for a percentage.KLEE: Oh, so they're essentially pinhookers to begin with?
DOTSON: Well, they are . . .
KLEE: [inaudible]
DOTSON: . . . employees of the tobacco company.
KLEE: Oh, okay. All right.
DOTSON: And they are hired for a percentage, so much per pound, or per hundred
pounds of tobacco that they actually . . . comes in under their contract that they write, and they get paid so much.KLEE: But there's not very many speculators out there, then?
DOTSON: No.
KLEE: Just trying to . . .
DOTSON: No. That . . . those are . . . those days are over.
KLEE: Uh-huh. Okay. I think I've pretty much covered most of the . . . most of
the question I had. You did say . . . there are . . . there are occasionally some fire-cured barns built, though?DOTSON: Oh, yeah. Very few.
KLEE: Okay.
DOTSON: Very few of them being replaced.
KLEE: Okay. So the load's falling on fewer and fewer farmers?
DOTSON: Fewer and fewer producers, that's right.
KLEE: Okay. Well, I appreciate you talking to me.
DOTSON: I appreciate your interest.
KLEE: Okay. [chuckle]
[End Tape #1, Side #2]
[End of Interview]
1:00