Oral History Interview with Charles W. Meadows

[Begin Tape #1, Side #1]

KLEE: The following is an unrehearsed interview for the Kentucky Oral History Commission by John Klee with Charles Meadows here at the Southern States office in . The interview is being conducted on May 15, at the . . . at Southern States' offices. Mr. Meadows, if you'll just begin telling me a little bit about your background. What . . . where you're from . . .

MEADOWS: Originally, I'm from . Was raised in . After high school, I spent five years with the Army. My degree is in military science. After coming back from overseas, I started to work with Southern States Co-op. I have worked in three retail stores; have worked in a regional office as a field salesman; and the opportunity became available to come to Maysville as the manager of this store and for the last eight years, I have been here.

KLEE: So that was in `79 . . .

MEADOWS: Yes.

KLEE: . . . that you came here? Okay. Explain, if someone doesn't know, what kinds of services a retail store like this gives. What kinds of things it does.

MEADOWS: Okay. We sell seed either in the bag or in the bulk. We grind the patrons' corn. We pick up and deliver their corn if need to be. We sell fertilizer, both in the bag, in the bulk, or in a liquid suspension. We custom apply fertilizer, or we furnish fertilizer buggies for the farmer to apply himself. We provide agricul-, agricultural chemicals. They can either be impregnated on dry fertilizer or mixed with a liquid fertilizer, or sold over the counter to the patron and he applies them himself. We sell all types of seed, anywhere from lawn and garden to field seeds. And then the major farm supply commodities, anything from a shovel and a rake to a refrigerator for the house or freezer for the ladies, or . . .

KLEE: These kinds of . . . I just want kind of rough figures, but how many . . . about how many employees do you have here?

MEADOWS: I have sixteen.

KLEE: Sixteen. And what kinds of sales are generated, you know, in a year?

MEADOWS: We'll . . . we'll do on the average five million dollars a year.

KLEE: Okay. Explain a little bit about the concept of Southern States Cooperative. What does that mean?

MEADOWS: Southern States was organized back in , back in the early 30's. It was organized by two gentlemen that were farmers, and they needed a source of supply for their items. Back in those days I understand, you know, just wasn't too many farm supply dealers around, so these . . . these individuals formed a co-op where they could go out and buy their fertilizer or their grass seeds or their feed at a reasonable price and it . . . it has grown from those two individuals to now where it operates in a seven-state territory.

KLEE: Okay. It still operates as a cooperative, also?

MEADOWS: Right.

KLEE: Farmers . . .

MEADOWS: We are a farm co-op.

KLEE: Okay. And people that purchase goods here become part of that cooperative, and have voting privileges depending on . . .

MEADOWS: Yes . . .

KLEE: . . . what? How many . . . what their . . . what their . . . how much they buy?

MEADOWS: Yes. There's . . . there's three types of stores anymore. You have the stores that are owned by Southern States and they are cooperative stores. You have a store like, at Maysville, it's what is termed as a local cooperative, and it's owned by the people that do business with it. We have a board of directors that I work for. And then you have some, what they term as private agencies, which is a store that is just owned by a private individual, and he is franchised to buy a Southern States product. Now that store is operated a little bit different cause it's an individual store and he can operate the way he so wants. It is not a cooperative.

KLEE: But you had . . . you have to have meetings and report to the board of directors and members and so on?

MEADOWS: Yes.

KLEE: This project's primarily interested in . . . in tobacco. So I'm gonna kind of go through a season with you and let you explain to me the kinds of things that a tobacco farmer has to . . . has to get through you, and maybe a little bit even about costs approximately, the way they are now. When the farmers . . . the first thing they do of course is prepare a plant bed. Now most farmers today gas a bed. How does . . . how does . . . they have to . . . do they buy that from you?

MEADOWS: Yes. And generally, the farmer will start in the fall. He will plow his tobacco bed and then he will purchase the gas and the material needed to gas that bed. Now he can buy from a farm supply dealer like us or he can have it custom applied by different individuals that have the equipment and supplies to do this. A lot of them like to do it in the fall, and then in early February, this bed will be . . . plastics will be taken off of it. It will be raked, be disked and raked real good, and anytime in late February, they'll start sowing their tobacco seeds and putting their canvas on.

KLEE: Now for someone that doesn't know, what . . . what is this gas? It's a herbicide? Or it . . .

MEADOWS: It . . . it's a herbicide that sterilizes the soil.

KLEE: Will kill any kind of organisms growing . . . I mean, plant organisms [inaudible] . . .

MEADOWS: It will kill most plant organisms. You'll always have some . . . some weeds that will . . .

KLEE: Yeah, I know that some of these chemicals, obviously, this is something that is a relatively new thing. I mean, you know, it used to be that farmers would burn their beds to achieve the same kind of purpose. Don't . . . don't you provide training and so forth for certain chemicals?

MEADOWS: Yes. All . . . basically all the chemicals that we handle anymore are restricted use chemicals.

KLEE: Explain what that means: restricted use.

MEADOWS: It . . . it basically means they're dangerous. So any farmer, before he can purchase these types of chemicals from us, must have gone through a . . . a three-phase training that is conducted by . . . in our area . . . by the University of Kentucky Extension Service, and it tells him the proper ways to apply these chemicals, and the proper procedures that he should use, to be careful not to get the chemicals on him, or to get them in his eyes or to . . . to get it in his body in some form. Most of these chemicals are deadly. Methyl bromide, the chemical they use to gas tobacco beds, is very deadly. Several years ago, it got scarce and this happened up in the north. I think it was in . There was a farmer that purchased some gas in the fall because it was scarce, and he took it in his house. In fact he put it under his bed in the bedroom. It . . . it's in a pressurized container, and during the winter, these containers started leaking and it killed his whole family. So the farmer has to be trained to handle all types of these chemicals.

KLEE: So the Extension Service does the training and provides what? A certificate or a card . . .

MEADOWS: Yes.

KLEE: . . . and then they have to show that to you?

MEADOWS: Yes. It is illegal for us to sell any of the restricted use chemicals to a farmer that does not have a card that says he's been trained.

KLEE: Do you have very many problems with this? Are there farmers that . . .

MEADOWS: Yes, you really do because a lot of your farmers just don't wanna take the time to go sit down and do the training. It's basically a three-hour class where they show you some films. They have different individuals that will talk about the chemicals, and then they have an easy test that you take at the time, that if you'll just sit there and listen to them, you'll have no problem. But . . . but they just don't wanna take the time to do it, and it's to their own benefit and when they come in here, it's against the law for me to sell to them. And they get . . . they get very irate at times, you know, because they come in here and we refuse to sell them these products and unfortunately, they can go some places that will sell it to them.

KLEE: That's what I was wondering. There are some sources that . . .

MEADOWS: There . . . there are some sources, some people just ignore the law and they'll sell it. And right now, the law is not enforced that much. I guess we really don't have the people to enforce it, or the . . . the government doesn't have the money to hire the people, and it . . . it's a bad situation.

KLEE: It's difficult . . . sure. What's . . . for . . . course, you know, it depends on how many beds you put out and so forth, but what's . . . what kind of costs are you talking about here for the gas?

MEADOWS: Okay. You . . . basically a gas for . . . for an average bed will cost you about twenty dollars.

KLEE: Okay. And of course they have to cover the bed with . . . with plastic?

MEADOWS: You have to have a heavy type plastic, which will cost you about another ten dollars. And that's all you need to gas the beds.

KLEE: Now, just again, for the uninitiated, that gas is released underneath that plastic and then spreads throughout. It's . . . it's closed in.

MEADOWS: Yes it . . . it spreads throughout the ground under the plastic.

KLEE: And that's . . . that's what they learn in those training sessions, how to . . . where to place the cans and how to open them and . . .

MEADOWS: Right.

KLEE: . . . and so forth. Okay. After you have beds, course you have to prepare your fields. What kinds of products are farmers using on their tobacco fields? Do very many . . . course you got the lime, I guess. Fertilize.

MEADOWS: For your tobacco fields, you need to plan this early and in the fall is a good time to start it. If the farmer will pick out the field that he wants to raise tobacco in for the next spring, the first thing he should do would be get a soil test. Have the soil analyzed and find out what the pH is, if there's any micronutrients needed and then how much nitrogen, phosphorus and potash is required to grow his particular crop of tobacco, and to maintain his land.

KLEE: Now, soil tests . . . again, a lot of those are done through the Extension Service, is that right?

MEADOWS: Yes.

KLEE: Do you-all . . . I guess you-all sell kits and so forth too or . . .

MEADOWS: No. There . . . there are some kits that you can purchase. They're not that accurate. Anymore, if . . . I know at least here at our store, now a farmer that trades with us, we'll pay for the soil test.

KLEE: Oh I see, okay.

MEADOWS: And you're only talking about seven or eight dollars to have a test run. You can either have it run at the University or there are several private labs available to have it run at, and if you don't run a soil test, you're just kidding yourself. A lot of your farmers say, well, I just need a ton of fertilizer. And in most cases, they're wasting their money because you don't need a tone of straight tobacco fertilizer. It could be that you need more potash or you need more nitrogen or you need more phosphorus. And the only way to be accurate is to have a test and see. Some of these different nutrients are a very high price and you . . . you're just wasting money in most cases. Also, when you guess at it, too, you really don't know what the Ph is and you can be guessing too low. So it's in the best interests to have a soil test. It may cost him more one year to fertilize than it will the next year, but at least he's gonna put on what he needs.

KLEE: What kinds . . . again, let's say that I . . . I'm gonna raise five thousand pounds of tobacco, which would be, what? About two acres or in that range? Well, more than probably.

MEADOWS: Yes, probably . . .

KLEE: The yields aren't that . . . depending on where you're growing it and so on and so forth.

MEADOWS: An average yield would be between two thousand and twenty-five hundred pounds per acre.

KLEE: What . . . it depends on what you need then, I guess, on how much your expenses are gonna be.

MEADOWS: Yes.

KLEE: What . . . what kinds of prices, you know, for say an average farmer, if he . . . you know, if his field's in pretty good shape, is there . . . are there standard kinds of things they do?

MEADOWS: For tobacco? For fertilizer you mean?

KLEE: Uh-huh.

MEADOWS: Well, not anymore. It's not really standard. If they take their soil test, an average to grow a twenty-five hundred pound crop of tobacco, you would probably need about one hundred units of nitrogen, and two hundred units of phosphate, and three hundred units of potash. That's the equivalent to two thousand pounds of 5-10-15. And you're talking about a hundred and ten dollars for that.

KLEE: Now that's . . . that's . . . you rent the little buggies for these farmers to use, or you know, you can actually apply it yourself. That's one of the services . . . I mean . . .

MEADOWS: Or you . . . yes, or you can buy it in the bag and put it on by hand.

KLEE: Okay. Do farmers spray their fields to prevent weeds at all?

MEADOWS: Yes.

KLEE: Okay. What do they use for that?

MEADOWS: Okay, there . . . there is a number of herbicides that you can use. The disadvantage is anytime you use a herbicide, you can have some chemical reactions in your tobacco. It's . . . it's just like growing an organic garden, you know. If you don't use the chemicals, the plants will grow better, but when you're raising several acres of tobacco, what loss you would have by using a herbicide would more than offset the labor that would be required to hoe out an acre of tobacco. So there are Prowl and Baylam and Tillam and Firelam, is all popular tobacco herbicides. They'll cost you anywhere from about ten dollars to about twenty-five dollars an acre.

KLEE: So that's a lot easier than spending hundreds of hours and . . . and you know, most farmers just don't have the labor and . . .

MEADOWS: It's just not practical, unless you had a large family. You couldn't go out there and hire the labor to chop out tobacco fields.

KLEE: Now that's . . . that's sprayed on?

MEADOWS: Yes.

KLEE: Again, does that require some of the training and . . .

MEADOWS: Yes. It . . . it's . . . it's another chemical that is hazardous. Your tobacco herbicides are not poisonous, but then again they are hazardous and they can react differently on different people.

KLEE: Okay. Disease control is something has to be taken care of early on. Course we had a bad blue mold problem. I guess that's something that's . . . most farmers are still . . . are they . . . are more farmers taking chances on blue mold or most of them treating for it?

MEADOWS: No. Most of them today, there is a preventative for blue mold which is a product by the name of Rid-, Ridomil. It's a very expensive fungicide. It'll cost you between fifty and sixty dollars an acre. But really, that's good insurance. It's money that's well spent. You never know when it's gonna hit. You really don't want to take a chance.

KLEE: Well, that has to be carefully applied too, cause if . . . if there's a rain or something afterwards, you can . . .

MEADOWS: All chemicals are very sensitive, and they're all based on a certain amount of rainfall after they're put on. And just like this year right now. We . . . we've gone about five to six weeks without any rainfall, and a lot of the farmers have applied their chemicals and unfortunately a lot of them are gonna be wasted because we just have not had the rainfall to . . . to get the chemicals to carry in the ground and to work.

KLEE: At what point do you apply the Ridomil? Is that . . .

MEADOWS: All of your tobacco chemicals should be applied just before you transplant your tobacco plants. Once you put the chemicals in the ground, they start to work. And most of them have a life expectancy of about sixty to ninety days, and that's about half of the growing season for . . . for a tobacco field. So you . . . you only wanna put them on just prior to transplanting.

KLEE: Now, some farmers have applied their Ridomil when they're setting in the water. It's not . . .

MEADOWS: That is not recommended. Ciba-Geigy is the . . . the manufacturers of Ridomil. The recommended rate is two quarts per acre, sprayed on . . .

KLEE: Sprayed on . . .

MEADOWS: . . . just prior to transplanting. Now you . . . you always have some people that get innovative and they come up with some . . . some good country ideas, but then again, there are some side effects to it too, because usually with Ridomil, you've got to be specific that you get two quarts per acre. Some people put it in transplanter solution and you don't have a good way of measuring it. And I have seen fields of tobacco killed by using too much Ridomil.

KLEE: I see. Well, that . . . that chemical, are there other kinds of fungicides that are pretty standard or is that the one that . . .

MEADOWS: No, Ridomil is the only fungicide that is available for blue mold.

KLEE: Yeah. I was thinking about other diseases. Are there other chemicals . . .

MEADOWS: There . . . there are other chemicals for . . . for different diseases. You may get wildfire or black shank or other diseases in a tobacco crop, depending on the disease. There are chemicals available to spray on your tobacco.

KLEE: Okay, so you've got like a chemistry . . . chemistry lab for different diseases.

MEADOWS: Yes.

KLEE: You know, somebody says, I've got black shank, and you say well this is . . . this is what we're recommending. Is there very much competition among those companies?

MEADOWS: Yes. That is . . . it is really fierce today. And it's very hard to keep up with these chemicals because every year, you probably got twenty-five or thirty companies, and they're all coming out with a new chemical every year.

KLEE: And they're all coming in here to see you, I guess.

MEADOWS: They'll all come in and . . . and it's very hard to keep up with and we use, in our store, we use the mail that is published by the University of Kentucky because the university does a lot of research on the different chemicals and they . . . they won't recommend a product until they have done extensive research, and there's just too many products on the market for anybody to retain. So we . . . we go exclusively with the recommendations of the university. That makes our job a whole lot easier, and it makes it safe.

KLEE: Yeah. What about the . . . you mentioned the high cost of Ridomil. Is that because there's only one company involved or . . .

MEADOWS: I believe so, yes.

KLEE: Okay.

MEADOWS: Because Ridomil . . . well, a lot of it is controlled by the government, too. You can go to and buy Ridomil for fifteen to twenty dollars a gallon. Here in , it's a hundred and twenty dollars a gallon. The makers claim that the price difference is due to the government regulations that are put on that. And that . . . that is true to an extent, and it's also true that Ciba-Geigy is the only maker of Ridomil at the present time, and they're gonna get the money while they can.

KLEE: There's no comparable product, I guess . . .

MEADOWS: No.

KLEE: . . . that'll do the same thing.

MEADOWS: And . . . and they kind of got you over the barrel, but there is a lot of research that goes into this, and they've got to try to make their money back.

KLEE: While we're talking about the chemicals and so forth, tobacco . . . well, there's still a pretty large belt, but you know, it's not that extensively grown a crop. Does that make it . . . are there still lots of companies involved in the tobacco business or . . .

MEADOWS: Yes. The tobacco business in . . . in the world is a big business. Now, in the , we've had some hard times in the last few years, but I think that is beginning to turn around and it's a big business for .

KLEE: I'm . . . we're kind of going through the year and the kinds of products that farmers come in to you to buy. Today, of course there's sucker control that the farmers use. What do they use for sucker control? When do they apply that?

MEADOWS: Okay, in the fall, generally they'll start using a sucker control. In about August. After your tobacco has grown to a certain stage, then you wanna restrict that growth, and there's several ways to do that. The old time way was you walked out through the field, and you suckered it by hand. You did that by breaking the top out of the tobacco. But today, you got people raising several acres of tobacco, and that's just not economically feasible so there are several growth retardants on the market today. MH30 is probably the most popular brand name on the market. It's a material that you use from about one and a half to two gallons per acre. It'll cost you on the average about six dollars a gallon for the material, and then you have to apply it by the use of the highboy. And . . . and a highboy is just a tall piece of equipment that you can drive through a tobacco field, and would spray the her-, the MH30 down on the tobacco.

KLEE: Are you-all in that business of spraying for people?

MEADOWS: No. No, we . . . we do not have the applicators. We just furnish the material.

KLEE: No very many people spray by hand anymore?

MEADOWS: Very few. Very . . . it . . . it's just . . . the acreage is too large anymore to do it by hand.

KLEE: Later on in the process, of course, as far as additives and so forth, there's no too much left to be done after the suckering probably.

MEADOWS: No, generally when they spray a sucker control, if there's any leaves on the tobacco or if they have any grasshoppers, there is some chemicals that they can mix with your MH30 to control your grasshoppers or your fleas or any . . . aphids or any . . .

KLEE: What are they called? Collectively? Is there a term for those? Insecticides, I guess?

MEADOWS: Insecticides, yes.

KLEE: Okay.

MEADOWS: A good product is Orthine that's made by the Chevron Chemical Company. It's good for grasshoppers and aphids and flea beetles. Generally, any insects that would chew on your tobacco leaf.

KLEE: And that's . . . they're not too expensive?

MEADOWS: No. They're . . . in most cases, you're only talking about between five and ten dollars an acre.

KLEE: To add to the MH30. What about . . . you said the MH30 is six dollars a gallon and how far would that go?

MEADOWS: Okay, you . . . you want between a gallon and a half and two gallon to the acre.

KLEE: Okay. So that's not very expensive.

MEADOWS: Anywhere's between nine to twelve dollars an acre for your MH30.

KLEE: I guess at one time, and I don't know if your . . . your tenure with the group probably doesn't go back this far, maybe . . . there were some farmers that were using coke in the barns to help the curing process. That's just about disappeared now?

MEADOWS: Yes. There . . . there are a few of your older farmers that still use coke. It's mostly being replaced anymore by LP gas.

KLEE: There are still some people, though, that are using heat . . .

MEADOWS: Yes.

KLEE: . . . in the . . .

MEADOWS: There is a lot of people that use . . .

KLEE: Oh, I didn't realize that . . .

MEADOWS: . . . [inaudible] tobacco. Most of it is in the form of LP gas. There is a stove . . . some stoves that you put out in your tobacco barns, and they run on LP gas.

KLEE: So you just close them up as much as they can, the barns . . .

MEADOWS: Yes.

KLEE: Do you-all provide any of those products?

MEADOWS: Yes, we sell LP gas. We don't sell coke. There's a place over at Ripley [inaudible] where you can still buy coke, a little coal yard over there. Very few places with coke anymore.

KLEE: Yeah, well I guess it got expensive. Gas would be awfully expensive too, wouldn't it?

MEADOWS: Gas is expensive. I don't know the price of coke anymore, but the thing about it, it's just so much easier to use than coke.

KLEE: Oh sure, I'm sure. Yeah.

MEADOWS: So I guess, really, when you look at it from the labor savings, probably gas is . . . is cheaper than . . . than coke.

[End Tape #1, Side #1]

[Begin Tape #1, Side #2]

KLEE: This is side two of a tape with Charles Meadows. We were talking about the . . . the coke or the gas to heat the tobacco to help cure it along. Another kind of set of products . . . there for awhile it got a little popular. Mechanization got popular in . . . in the tobacco fields, stripping machines, people even were . . . when U.K. was experimenting with cutters course they went from tying tobacco to bale bales. Do you all . . . most of the farmers manufacture them themselves? Or do you sell very many bale boxes or . . . baling boxes?

MEADOWS: We sell a few. Generally the farmer can buy a kit and make his own bale box cheaper than he can go out and buy one from a company. We . . . we can buy them from people that make them and then we turn around and resell them and, you know, you got several different people handling them and so you got a right smart cost involved there.

KLEE: What's a bale box . . . and course there's different styles, I guess.

MEADOWS: Well, there's several different styles anymore. And you're talking about anywheres from twenty-five dollars for a little simple wooden bale box that you can get on up to six, seven hundred dollars for some very fancy three boxes in a row with . . . with an air compressor to compress them with and . . . get some right elaborate boxes that . . . that are maybe necessary or maybe really not that necessary.

KLEE: The . . . you-all . . . the stripping machines and so forth. Were you ever into selling any of those at all?

MEADOWS: Yes, we sold a few stripping machines. I guess we threw away more than we sold.

KLEE: Is that right?

MEADOWS: Stripping machines did not really go over that big. There's nothing wrong with a good stripping machine. I think really what happened, you got so many different people making stripping machines, and they all tried to beat out their competitor and you got a lot of junk on the market, so they kind of ruined themselves. A . . . a large tobacco farmer that raised several acres of tobacco, a stripping machine was very beneficial to him. But the average, at least in our area, at least in these state of , the average tobacco farmer could strip his tobacco by hand with his family and with what hired hands he already had to pay on the farm a lot cheaper than going out and investing into mechanical strippers. I doubt that there's many people in anymore with stripping machines, and I know there were several companies that went bankrupt trying to manufacture these machines and I know that I had about six that I finally hauled to the dump and threw away that cost a lot of money. Eleven, twelve hundred dollars apiece. And I know another company, there was . . . in Maysville, called Maysville Tobacco Machinery Company, and I know at one time the owner of that company told me he had over sixty on hand that . . . said he was just gonna scrap out. Most of your farmers employ a certain amount of help year-round, and it's kind of a natural in the fall and winter months, you know, when these people aren't working out in the fields, to come into the barns and strip tobacco. So it just kind of helps pay these people's wages that you're gonna have regardless.

KLEE: The . . . that's about the extent where you . . . where your services stop at the equipment level. You don't do much with . . .

MEADOWS: No, once . . . once the tobacco is cut and housed, that's about where we quit.

KLEE: Well, I mean also with your . . . your product line, you don't sell setters and those kind of things?

MEADOWS: No, we don't sell setters or . . . there are a few mechanical tobacco cutters. Very few. They haven't been very successful.

KLEE: Let me ask you about your relationship with farmers. Farmers are, you know, your business. How do you find farmers to be as customers?

MEADOWS: . . . The . . . the farmer, I feel like in most cases, is the best customer we can have. Now in our types of business we . . . we sell to . . . to city households, to rural people, to the urban trade. I mean, we sell anything from garden seed to canning jars to paper towels to soft drinks.

KLEE: Yeah. Frozen food occasionally?

MEADOWS: Frozen food. But . . . but the . . . the true farmer, I feel like, is the most honest people we deal with. He will always pay you, where we have dealt with people that are professional people that we have a hard time getting our money from.

KLEE: Yeah, I wanna get more into detail in that in a minute, but I just . . .

MEADOWS: Now, the farmer sometimes I think can be the dumbest person we fool with. The farmer has a tendency to overdo it. You take, just like on your chemicals. You know, where . . . where the recommendation is maybe a gallon of a certain chemical to the acre, he says, well if a gallon does good, just think what two gallons will do. And . . . and we have got into some problems with your growth retardance, like the MH30. That . . . that was one of the reasons that . . . that the tobacco buyers went overseas to buy some tobacco because we were putting on too much, and . . . and you get a build-up of this. Even in the spring of the year. You know, tobacco has either been on a poundage basis or an acreage basis and the farmer would maybe be allowed to grow ten thousand pounds of tobacco. But he says, well, I don't wanna take a chance. I'm gonna try to grow fifteen thousand pounds, and he built up a surplus and . . . and he . . . over a period of time, he has hurt himself. So the farmer, I feel like, is . . . is the most honest people that we have ever dealt with, but sometimes they can also be the most stupidest people.

KLEE: Contrary [chuckle] . . .

MEADOWS: They . . . they . . . they hurt themselves.

KLEE: I . . . I wanted to bring it up . . . I've gotten it from other sources too, but the MH30 was a problem, particularly in some of our foreign markets, like the Germans and the Japanese were very concerned about that build-up. There wasn't . . . there's really not anything . . . you're still gonna use sucker control, I guess, it's just a matter of applying the right amount?

MEADOWS: That's right. The right amount. What you do, the . . . the reason sometimes they would apply more . . . you . . . you try to hurry up the process. And you . . . you just can't get in a hurry with some of the . . . the crops that we grow.

KLEE: Some other things about the farmers. Do you find that . . . are there fewer farmers for you to deal with?

MEADOWS: Yes, in the . . . in the . . . since I been dealing with the farmers, basically since 1970. There's a lot of small farmers that are just going out of business. Either going bankrupt or selling out. And your farming is getting to be anymore where it's gotta be on a large scale basis. The small family farm is having a hard time to compete. And farming is a science and it's more or less gotta be done on a large scale basis.

KLEE: Do you find because of the larger farms that they're more likely to come and use those, the chemicals, and do the kinds of things that are necessary?

MEADOWS: Yes.

KLEE: What about the aging farmers? Do you see . . . are there not as many young farmers or . . .

MEADOWS: Unfortunately right now, I don't know the average age of the American farmer, but I know in our area, very few young people are getting into farming. And I guess that is due for several different reasons. Farming is not easy, by any means. Farming in one sense of the word is not that rewarding. For the boy that wants to stay on the . . . the boy or the girl that wants to stay on the . . . the country's farm, it's a lot of hard work; you don't make a whole lot of money. But then again, it can be very rewarding if that's what you want. But then again, a lot of people wanna get out into the world and make a lot of money.

KLEE: Yeah, you're thinking about financially rewarding and farming won't . . .

MEADOWS: Financially . . . financially rewarding is not gonna be in farming. But then again, there's . . . there's more to look at too. I mean, a lot of people just like to be out in the open and work with the animals and the ground and the soils.

KLEE: Have some freedom of when you wanna do things and [inaudible]. Talk with me a little bit about financial considerations. I know that, you know, I . . . I've talked to bankers and people that deal with farm mortgages and of course a lot of farmers, we're not as bad as maybe some areas, and luckily this maybe is a southern state rather than a Midwestern state. They're probably in harder shape, but how do you . . . how do you handle financial things with farmers? Do you carry . . . I'm sure you carry credits.

MEADOWS: Yes. We . . . you know, we . . . part of our business is financing. And that's just a part of doing business today. And we have to be very careful. In the last . . . you know, farming in the late 60's and early 70's was booming. So you had a lot of people that got into farming. At that time, it cost a lot of money to get into it, but money was easy to get, and you also had a lot of young people that got into it then that did not put a lot of thinking and a lot of thought behind it. So you got a lot of people that got into debt very heavily. And then as . . . as farming . . . kind of went on the backside, and the farm economy got worse, then you had a lot of people that . . . that owed a lot of money and had a lot of high interest money. And it . . . it turned sour on them. So . . . so we have to be very careful to protect our business.

KLEE: Did . . . you were with Southern States during . . . I guess really the beginning, the late 70's and early 80's I guess was the time when we really went down in that . . . that bust. And we had high interest rates and people that had . . . and of course equities in farms went down. Did Southern States lose a lot of . . .

MEADOWS: Yes . . .

KLEE: . . . money I guess?

MEADOWS: Yes. I know our store, we lost some good accounts, some . . . some large accounts. Not good account, large accounts. So we went through a two or three year period there where we had to write off some money. A lot of your farmers just went broke during that time. A lot of your farm-, farming again as I said is a science, and you gotta be very careful in what you do. You just . . . you just cannot go out here and buy a lot of land pay high prices for it. You can't go out and buy a lot of big equipment just because you'd like to have it. And unfortunately we had a lot of . . . basically a lot of young people have got into trouble that way.

KLEE: So when you . . . when you have an account here, and of course . . . although it . . . you know, some of the costs we were talking about, things will build up, particularly if they . . . you know, if your customers buy all their . . . all their needs here. Plants and seed and chemicals and so forth. You have, I guess, a credit process that you . . . that your customers go through?

MEADOWS: Yes.

KLEE: And you approve them and then have certain limits and . . .

MEADOWS: We . . . we . . .

KLEE: . . . just like a . . . any other kind of . . .

MEADOWS: . . . we operate . . . anymore, we operate just like the bank does. You know, when the farmer wants to . . . to run an account with us, he has to come in and fill out a credit application. It is thoroughly checked out and we deal with him just like a bank. We gotta protect our assets and we . . . we have to operate with him on a very sound financial basis.

KLEE: What you're saying is that, in this day and time, you're very careful about that?

MEADOWS: Yes.

KLEE: Conservative, I guess.

MEADOWS: We . . . we encourage people to . . . to work with their local financial institutions. We . . . we really don't need to be in the banking business, but it is a part of our business. But your . . . your larger and . . . and . . . farmer will . . . will go work with the financial institution, either a bank or a . . . federal land bank or PCA's and . . . and these people can work with the farmer a lot better than we can. And at a lot better interest rate.

KLEE: Interest rates, right. That's why they would go ahead and do that anyway.

MEADOWS: Right.

KLEE: Okay. So, you know, it's really not in their interest to carry large accounts with you?

MEADOWS: No.

KLEE: Because it's hurting them financially. You're in the agri-business industry and we have . . . course I work at a local college where we have a little program, and you hear a lot of farm people say, well, I'm not going to . . . I wanna stay in agriculture some way, but I . . . I don't wanna farm because of the, you know, kind of gloomy outlook. So they wanna go into agri-business. If that . . . course you . . . you have a lot of contact, both in your position and people coming in to see you, is that a . . . is that a growing area? Is there . . .

MEADOWS: No. No. No today, you know, the agri-business area today is depressed due to the farm economy. And you have . . . you have a number of agri-businesses that are either going bankrupt or closing their doors today. When the farm economy turns around, then our business will turn around. You have to be very careful just to . . . just to hand on to what you have in the agri-business area. It's not a . . . a business that . . . that I would recommend to everybody to try to get into right now. It's very rewarding, but you gotta be very careful, and it would be very hard to go out and start from scratch in agri-business today.

KLEE: The . . . we talked mostly about tobacco. How . . . from your experience here, how important is tobacco in relation to your business? Does it constitute ten percent or twenty percent or . . . I know, you know, that's . . . that's kind of a difficult question . . .

MEADOWS: Well, tobacco is . . . is very important in our business, due to the fact of the fertilizer. About half of the fertilizer that we'll sell in a year's time we'll be used on tobacco, so that's very important. Probably about thirty percent of the chemicals we sell will be used on tobacco, and . . . and then probably ten to fifteen percent of the other supplies, farm supplies, will be used for tobacco. [pause in tape]

KLEE: You were talking about the . . . ten to fifteen percent of the . . . I don't know what I wrote down.

MEADOWS: Farm supplies . . . that's miscellaneous.

KLEE: Of course, and . . . I guess tobacco provides a good deal of their income too?

MEADOWS: That's right. The . . . the farmer uses that tobacco money . . . he gets most of it at the end of the year when he sells his crop. And it's a big income. It's a big income for the farmer, and . . . and it really carries him throughout the year.

KLEE: Is that when you see a lot of accounts being paid up or caught up . . .

MEADOWS: Yes.

KLEE: . . . a little bit?

MEADOWS: At the end of the year, when the farmer sells his tobacco crop, why in most cases, he'll go pay up all his debts that he has, either with dealers like us or with the banks and the lending institutions and . . . and he gets caught up with his debts and if he's had a good year, he's got some extra money and then he can start off the next year on a good, sound basis.

KLEE: Despite the problems in agriculture, this business seems to have really progressed and grown. You see lots of physical improvements here and those kind of things. Is that . . . do you attribute that . . . and course, you know, you're responsible . . . partly responsible for that. Is that because you're expanding the business to other kinds of customers?

MEADOWS: Well no . . . well . . . yes and no. Our basic business is with the true farmer. The thing we try to do is provide every service or every need that we can for the farmer. We also, you know, dab into LP gas and frozen food and . . . and other items. It . . . it's kind of a happy mix. But basically, we're . . . we're a farm business and probably seventy-five percent of our business will come from farmers.

KLEE: What kind of personal future is there for you with the company? What . . . what kinds of goals do you . . . is this . . . is this kind of the optimum position for you, or is . . .

MEADOWS: Well, I have been further up the ladder so to speak in this position, and I chose to come back because I like working with the general public. The farm public in particular. I've had some jobs where it was strictly desk jobs. I . . . I just like what I'm doing and I think there's a good future for our business because farming is always gonna be . . .

KLEE: Sure . . .

MEADOWS: . . . you know, they talk about doing away with tobacco. Tobacco is always gonna be raised. It may be very different from what it has been in the past, but there's always gonna be a certain amount of tobacco used. Farming is . . . is the largest business in the world, you know. We feed the world. So I feel like that there's a great future for us. It's . . . it's . . . you're gonna have your ups and your downs, but we gotta plan ahead and we work on a five- and ten-year plan. And right now, we're working on our five and . . . where we wanna be five and ten years down the road. You gotta grow with the future. If a business stands still today, he . . . he's losing. So we . . . we got to find ways to grow.

KLEE: Okay. I appreciate you talking with me.

[End Tape #1, Side #2]

[End of Interview]