Oral History Interview with H. Carlisle Besuden

H. Carlisle Besuden, III by John Klee - Mary Leon[Begin Tape #1, Side #1]

KLEE: The following is an unrehearsed interview by John Klee with Mr. Carlisle Besuden for the Kentucky Oral History Commission. The interview is being conducted in Mr. Besuden's home on . We'll . . . I usually start these to ask you . . . tell me about your background. I'm particularly interested in the time that you've spent and are still spending on publicizing tobacco and tobacco issues and news stories. How did you get into that business?

BESUDEN: Well I . . . I guess the main part you want . . . course I been farming since 1957, and raising . . .

KLEE: And you were raised . . .

BESUDEN: . . . raising tobacco.

KLEE: . . . raised by farm family?

BESUDEN: Yes.

KLEE: Tell me about that background. I guess you raised burley tobacco in this area?

BESUDEN: Burley tobacco and sheep and cattle. And hay. And then I . . .

KLEE: Is that what your father did most of his life?

BESUDEN: Yes.

KLEE: He was a farmer?

BESUDEN: Um, hmm. And then I went to the news-, worked at the newspaper as farm editor at the Lexington Herald-Leader in . . .

KLEE: Now . . .

BESUDEN: . . . nineteen . . . nineteen . . . 1969, I guess. And worked there for about seventeen years . . . sixteen and a half or seventeen, and reported all the farm news, and particularly tobacco because that is the big crop in central .

KLEE: Now you had . . . what kind of background before that time? You had farmed a little bit before you went to the paper or . . .

BESUDEN: Oh yes. I farmed . . . farmed from `57 to `69. Course, still farmed when I was at the paper, but I mean, it was mostly full-time. I worked a part-time job in soil conservation, with a fertilizer company and a seed corn company. So . . .

KLEE: Got a broad . . . broad background, then?

BESUDEN: Yeah. [chuckle]

KLEE: In reference to those tobacco issues, I wanna . . . I wanna go over . . . and you . . . you were writing for the paper during some, you know, changing times, and dealt with a lot of different people. That's . . . that's the bulk of the interview. That's what I wanna . . . what I wanna go to. In those early years, of course, we had a . . . we went from acreage to poundage. What . . . what was the atmosphere there? Were there people that were opposed to that? People supported it?

BESUDEN: I . . . I think anytime you have something new come up in a program that farmers have been involved in most of their life, you're gonna have some . . . not necessarily opposition, but hesitation. They know what they've had has been working and at least they're used to it, and they never know what the future might hold, so they're hesitant to change any time . . . anything in the main tobacco program, but I think . . . I'm sure everyone now sees that it was the right thing to change from acreage to poundage. So it controls the supply so much better.

KLEE: When you were . . . when you were writing those articles, what kind of . . . who were you orienting the articles toward? Did you . . . were you . . . were you wanting to inform people that didn't know anything about tobacco? Were you most interested in trying to tell tobacco farmers or any farmer what was going on?

BESUDEN: Well you try to write the article as simple as possible so that people that were interested in it that didn't know about tobacco would understand it and some of the things got pretty complicated trying to explain, but through numerous stories, I would try to use maybe a little different approach each time so that one group might pick up on one type of story and another group pick up on another.

KLEE: How did you get selected by the Herald? Because you know, you were . . . a young man. You know, it's not like right out of . . . right out of college or whatever . . .

BESUDEN: I never really knew for sure. At the time, I was working . . . I'd been working part-time and the money that was involved in the part-time work dried up. It was no longer available, so I was really out of a part-time job and I was sort of halfheartedly looking for another part-time job, and I just happened to be in the house at the . . . at the right or wrong time, whichever way you wanna look at it, [chuckles] when the telephone rang and it was a man from the newspaper and said he had understood that I might be interested in . . . in getting a job and that I didn't have to have any training in . . . in newspaper field, and that they would train me themselves. And . . . and as it worked out, it never got around to where they did furnish someone to help train me, so it was sort of a self-learning experience.

KLEE: Who were you working with then? Who . . . who were the people that you were working with on the Herald staff?

BESUDEN: Oh, I took the place of . . . of John Jenks, who was a long-time farm editor at the . . . at the newspaper. He had died, I think, within a couple of years of that, and then they had two or three people in between and it . . . that weren't farm-oriented and really didn't know about farming and whatnot, so I guess they just thought that since I would know more about farming and knew farm people, it might work out. And like I say, it worked for seventeen years.

KLEE: Right. Who were the . . . who were the editors at the time you started that year? Do you .

BESUDEN: Fred . . . Fred Wachs was the main . . . I guess he was a publisher at that time, and he was a very . . . very nice man and knowledgeable about agriculture because he had a farm and as time progressed, the newspaper was sold to Knight-Ridder organization out of Miami, Florida . . .

KLEE: That's just in recent years.

BESUDEN: . . . yeah, and about the last, I guess, seven or eight years before . . . five or six years before I quit. I retired . . . I took an early retirement from them because my dad was real ill and getting weaker all the time, and I wanted to spend more time with him, and the new . . . the new owners out of Miami didn't know what burley tobacco was and we just didn't see eye to eye on what needed to be recorded.

KLEE: Yeah, I wanna get into some of the details of that. Well I . . . we'll just do it right now while you're talking about it. When you started in `69, of course, the . . . the health issue had already erupted in `64, I guess, with the . . .

BESUDEN: Yeah, but it wasn't very it wasn't that much . . . that prevalent at that time.

KLEE: That's what I was gonna ask you.

BESUDEN: We just heard a little here, there, and yonder about it, but you didn't . . . you didn't hear . . . I mean, you could go six months and not hear, really, anything about the issue.

KLEE: Did . . . did you get any direction from your editors or the publisher about how to handle that? I mean, because you were in kind of a sensitive . . .

BESUDEN: No, no they just said report it like it is and really, it really came to the forefront just about the time I left the paper really. Just the last three or four years that's it's really been highlighted, so to speak.

KLEE: Well, let me get right to the . . . one of the . . . the heart of one of the issues I wanted to ask you about, and that was . . . it seems to me, and of course I . . . I'm a regular reader of the Herald and . . . and not only . . . not just picking on them, but it seemed to me like the state media maybe . . . I don't know how to say it . . . they . . . of course they've been very hard on the health issue and saying, you know, farmers ought to find alternate crops and so forth. And I wondered, you know, what kind of situation that put you in? I mean, as a farmer yourself? Do you think the media . . . I guess the question is, is the media . . . do they have an accurate vision or are they . . .

BESUDEN: Well I . . . I think on . . . on an issue like that, course I think . . . I think the mud-, the community maybe because there are fewer and fewer farmers all the time, want to read that type of information and . . . and . . . cause it's a negative, it's . . . as far as farmers are concerned, at least, it's negative information, and seems like the media plays up more negative type stories of any . . . any type than they do the others. And . . . and I've noticed just . . . just in the last ten years that farming . . . farm stories or farm-related information is getting less and less play-up in the newspapers. It's more health or diet or what's happening in or something like that. And both the main . . . the major newspapers now in , the [] Courier-Journal and the Lexington Herald-Leader, did not have a farm editor and as far as I know, did not have a designated farm writer.

KLEE: I didn't realize that.

BESUDEN: Or farm reporter.

KLEE: Is that right?

BESUDEN: I know the one at the Courier-Journal left, I think in November or December, something like that, and went to work in . And they haven't replaced him, and it's my understanding they won't.

KLEE: [inaudible]

BESUDEN: And the Herald's farm reporter that took my place left the first of January, and I understand that he's not being replaced. So the farm news is just not getting out to the public now like it once did because we're only, what? Two and a half, three percent of the population now, and the local papers, the county papers, still . . . the majority of them still have good agriculture reporting. Our local paper, which is a daily, has a one-page . . . one full page a week, and I notice other papers that I see around the county, the weeklies and . . . and the . . . and the dailies, will have one page devoted a week pretty much to agriculture.

KLEE: Again, this is . . . this is a question that's related to that. It seems to me, for example, I know the Herald-Leader has told farmers, well we need to get . . . you need to get out of the tobacco business and I . . . did . . . when they . . . when they wrote such articles, editorials, did they confer with their farm editor as far as you know? When you were there, did they confer with you?

BESUDEN: Well, they didn't start really doing that until after I left. Yeah, I been gone about two and a half years, now, and this has just really all happened since then. There . . . there . . . far as I can see, there is no alternative to tobacco.

KLEE: [chuckle] That's what . . . yeah, that . . .

BESUDEN: To replace it, I mean. As far as income is concerned.

KLEE: So that was really a question I had. It seemed to me like some of the editorial writers really didn't have a firm grasp on what was going on in the state, and they were writing these articles without . . . without really a background.

BESUDEN: Yeah, I notice they have a lot of . . . a lot of statements, but no answers. [chuckle]

KLEE: Let me take you back then, and go through some of these years that you were involved in reporting the news and . . . and some of the changes that took place. One of the things that . . . that a lot of Kentuckians don't realize is that there's other kinds of tobacco other than burley in this state. Did you have . . . did you have call to do much reporting on the dark tobacco or the . . .

BESUDEN: No. Because our . . . our paper didn't . . . didn't go that far in distribution, so really there wasn't much . . . I would report a little on the flue cured tobacco because it had a relationship in its programs and prices to burley. Not a direct relationship, but if prices were up in . . . in the flue-cured belt, which sold before we did, then nine out of ten times, prices would be up in the burley when burley came to market later, and things like that. So I did do a little with flue-cured, but there's not . . . as far as I know, there's not any flue-cured grown in . It's just dark tobacco.

KLEE: Dark-fired tobacco. Well, something else that happened right after you started and I . . . did anybody . . . I guess I'm asking questions . . . did anybody notice it much or did you see it happening in your reporting, was the . . . the companies imported more in the 70's.

BESUDEN: Oh yes. Yes, they started . . . started importing a lot more tobacco and course that . . . that made the other countries start raising more because the companies were . . . and we . . . we slipped . . . the United States slipped from, I think, sixty-five or seventy percent of the world production of burley down to about thirty percent, or maybe twenty-nine percent. Just cut it right in half. But now it's turning around the other way.

KLEE: Right. Did . . . were there . . . the information that you got, that brings me to a question . . . the sources of your information. Was that obvious during the 70's? Did . . . was it . . .

BESUDEN: Well, it was of a great concern. Yeah, a great concern to the tobacco leaders that more and more tobacco was coming into this country, being imported in and there were several attempts made to limit that through legislation, but to no avail. The companies had a lot more money to put in the lobbying efforts than the tobacco farmer. [chuckle] And they were more organized, of course. Naturally.

KLEE: What . . . what happened . . . and this came, I guess in the early 80's with the no-net cost. Was that . . . did you . . . from your viewpoint, was that a direct response to the health concerns? The fact that the program went to this no-net cost?

BESUDEN: I . . . I don't really think that that was a direct . . . there were a lot of factors involved there and I don't really think the health issue had a lot to do with it. I might have been a . . . a minor part that contributed to it, but . . . but not the main part. It was just . . . we needed a way to . . . to say that tobacco made it's own way, and that we weren't asking for the taxpayers to pay anything on it, and this was a way that the farmers could support themselves so to speak through this no-net cost. And that gave us a little more clout in . . . in congress. When they took a look at budget to see how much money was going out the farm programs and this, that, and the other, and they couldn't really come up with a main issue against tobacco because there was money in a fund to that no-net cost to refund the government if it was gonna be out any money. So it made it . . . it made the program stronger.

KLEE: Of course, the turnaround then occurred when there was a bad crop year and so forth. What was that like during that year? As far as reporting . . . the `83 . . .

BESUDEN: The `83 crop?

KLEE: Right.

BESUDEN: Well, looks like there's a dilemma every year when you're reporting about tobacco. It's either a drought or . . . or it rained too much or . . . or something. There was something wrong with it. Companies wanted a different color of tobacco than they had that year, and if we grew that color, the next year they wanted the color we had the year before, or something like that, you know. So . . . of course, the droughts did hurt as far in income. It . . . it was a major blow to tobacco farmers at that . . . at that time, but they did . . . were able to recoup the next two years by . . . by drawing that lost quota in later years.

KLEE: Well you . . . were you still reporting on the paper . . . I didn't write down the year . . . when the `85 compromise came into being?

BESUDEN: Yes, I was right in on the beginning of that fortunately. That's probably . . . be one of my long memories of the tobacco business because I was . . . had access to sit in on some of the early meetings that were just in the beginning of that program, as being a reporter. And . . . and it was through the open . . . open meeting laws and whatnot. [chuckle] I could go in and listen to them and I had a . . . a good understanding with tobacco leaders. Rather than them going into closed session, which I would not be allowed in, they would ask me could they have my word that what they said there would be off the record until a little later into . . . into the program, and . . . and but . . . but for my help, to allow me to set in on those meetings, sort of being able to grasp what they were trying to arrive at and whatnot. So it was a big help. So we worked and then they gave me early information to . . . to publish for that agreement between them, so I was able to scoop some of the other newspapers [chuckles] sometimes on some of the information coming out.

KLEE: Tell me about those meetings. Now I understand that there was a meeting in of a bunch of tobacco leaders, maybe at a local hotel or something where they talked out some of these things. Can you recall some of those? Who were the principals involved?

BESUDEN: Oh, not really offhand. I could go back to some of my notes that I've kept, and I don't know what I'll ever do with them, but I kept them anyway. The Farm . . . the Farm Bureau, of course . . . Ray Mackey was very instrumental in . . . in working with the program. Henry West, I think he's been involved with tobacco . . . well, with the Council for Burley Tobacco and also the Tobacco Advisory Council. And Albert Clay of was working with them at that time, a warehouse operator in . . . he was a major leader in . . . in tobacco over a number of years. And oh golly, there's others, I'm sure I should name, but I just don't remember them right now.

KLEE: What about the manufacturers? Were they just kind of . . . of course, they're very important to what happened.

BESUDEN: Yes, the prelim-, in the preliminary stages, they weren't at the meetings, but as a plan was worked out and then presented to the tobacco company leaders, then they were . . . they were brought in to give their views and . . . and how they would accept what . . . what had been proposed and then they began to work together. And, you know, worked out to the advantage of the . . . the farmer.

KLEE: You feel pretty well . . . pretty good about the process that took place?

BESUDEN: Yes. I think the tobacco program was awfully close to going under at that time. It's . . . course it's hard to go back and . . . and tell now exactly what would have happened, but it was on the downhill drag as we say in the farm circuit.

KLEE: What were some of the big hang-ups at that point? And the reason I'm asking that is because it . . . it'd probably highlight some of the differences between some of these groups.

BESUDEN: Well you had a lot of give and take. The farmers had to take a thirty cent cut in support prices, was one of the major steps, and then the companies guaranteed to buy the `82 and `84 crops that were in the pool. So I . . . those were probably the two major steps. And then the companies, I don't think they really . . . I don't think they really said they would . . . they would limit their imports of burley tobacco, but . . . but it was sort of inferred there that if they were gonna be buying more burley that they would have to cut back. So it was just sort of an understanding that . . . that they would cut back on imports which was a big help.

KLEE: I've interview Mr. Mackey and one of the . . . let me ask you this question, cause again, you've been kind of an official observer. It's . . . it's kind of surprising to me that . . . and of course, he did take a leadership role from everything I can tell . . . how farmers didn't take him to task as much as they have. I mean, farmers are really . . . they've taken cuts in allotment; they've taken cuts in . . . in their income, and still it seems to me, you know, to try to understand and go along with the program . . . can you explain that? You know, the other groups would have been protesting and striking and . . .

BESUDEN: Well, I think farmers are probably the least organized group of people in the .

KLEE: [chuckle] That's true.

BESUDEN: [chuckle] And as an individual, they really just don't complain, publicly complain too much. Now they'll get . . . get around the country store stove and . . . and complain this, that, and the other, but they don't really write letters to Washington and this, that, and the other, so really, there's only . . . that's why these tobacco groups are so important because they are made up of the grass root thoughts out in the country, and then they try to rely . . . relay these on to Washington, how farmers feel and this, that, and the other.

KLEE: I've kind of . . . I think I've hit most of the major issues that you probably faced during that time. Let me go back and talk about . . . but first I wanted to ask you about your sources of information. Where did you get the raw material to go into your articles?

BESUDEN: From . . . from the tobacco officials mostly. I . . . course I had people that would tell me things that . . . didn't want their name mentioned, so we had to . . . had to use sources without a name sometimes, which is not always good because you need to . . . you need to focus a statement on a person, but sometimes those people would tell you things that . . . that they just didn't want their name associated with because they would be reprimanded, being an official or a hierarchy in an organization, and would tell me sort of in-house secrets so to speak. And . . . but people would call you on the phone, and of course I went to all the meetings and picked up on the different things that were being brought up, and would interview different ones.

KLEE: That required probably a lot of night work?

BESUDEN: Yes. Actually, my hours were from ten in the morning to about seven at night, on a normal basis. When I first started . . . I knew I had to do my farming and when I first started the paper [inaudible], I went to work at three o'clock and got off at midnight, so . . . but that sort of worked around to where it came back earlier in the day.

KLEE: Can you . . . can you remember any stories that maybe drew an awful lot of response, or maybe got you in trouble or anything that made people mad?

BESUDEN: Switch . . . switching from hand-tied tobacco to baled tobacco. That was probably the hottest topic while I was working at the newspaper. So much . . . there was more controversy over that than anything.

KLEE: Is that right? Do you remember some of that? Now, of course . . .

BESUDEN: I've seen . . . I've seen people walk out of the meetings they got so upset over [chuckle] the thing.

KLEE: Of course, who had to decide that they would accept tobacco in that form? When was that . . .

BESUDEN: Well, it was initially . . . had to be legislation put in form, but there were . . . there were tobacco groups that wanted it that way. They saw a cut in costs to the farmer and that he could do it in much more . . . he could prepare his tobacco much more efficiently for the market and . . . and cheaper. But there were companies that fought it because they had been handling hand-tied tobacco, and their machinery was an assembly line, production lines, set up to handle it that way. So they fought it tooth and nail and we had some . . . some people in the tobacco groups that fought it because they didn't think it was a good thing. And . . . and I'd say there were some very heated debated over that, probably more so than anything else I ever saw.

KLEE: When . . . when you were writing those articles, of course, you were reporting information, when they made their decisions and so forth. You didn't kind of . . . you didn't take any stand on that?

BESUDEN: No, not . . . you couldn't. You had to report both sides. I would record in the same story the pros and the cons. I would quote people that were for it, and of course the ones that were against it. You had to be fair on something like that.

KLEE: Course you were farming in the evenings, too. Did you switch over pretty quickly?

BESUDEN: Oh yes. Uh-huh. The first year. Personally, I was a believer in the baled tobacco, cause I could see that it would save money, but some of the other people that had been in it much longer than I had, and had hand-tied tobacco say for fifty years or something, it was very hard to convince them that it would be the right thing.

KLEE: What about your relationship with this . . . we're talking about sources of information . . . your relationship with the ? Did you have a pretty good relationship?

BESUDEN: It was very good, yes. Yes, I had a lot of help from the university. Anytime I needed to know any facts and figures that I didn't have access to, or quick access to, I could call some of the tobacco specialists and . . . and economists, agronomists, depending on what the subject might be. And they were very helpful. They went out of their way, really, to help.

KLEE: Course there's been some . . . been some changes over there, really quite a few in the last ten years. I guess there's [inaudible] deans . . . gonna be stepping down. What . . . who were some of the individuals there that were particularly helpful?

BESUDEN: Dr. Joe Smiley was probably the most helpful. And at one time, I guess in the early years, Ira Massie who's in the tobacco department. Dr. [G. W.] Stokes was a big help in a lot of information that I needed. He was . . . he was in on all the higher level tobacco meetings and whatnot, so . . . oh golly, there's . . . there's been quite a few. I've forgotten some of the agronomists' names that I used to talk to. And not only tobacco, but on any other subject that came up: livestock or other crops. I never had any difficulty getting information from them.

KLEE: That . . . you mentioned other crops, and of course, those kinds of ideas have come and gone over the last . . . you know, you're close to thirty years we're talking about now that you were with the paper. You know, that time . . . stretching over that time period. I guess you reported . . . I guess . . . I know recently now they're talking about hay and growing hay as a cash crop. I guess you reported those kind of things dutifully but . . .

BESUDEN: Yes, but hay really just come on the last couple of years, and . . . but there was . . . there was beginning to be some talk about hay associations being formed just about the time I left. And that's probably about as close to an alternative to tobacco, or at least a crop that will help build up the excess in the income that has been lost through tobacco.

KLEE: Well, and the 70's didn't . . . wasn't there a big urge to go big and tear down fences and try to grow corn and some of those . . .

BESUDEN: In . . . in other parts of the . . . of the country, and I guess the closest was in western to us. But not around here too much. We didn't . . . we're mostly . . . we're basically tobacco and cattle country.

KLEE: Let me ask you about the plight of the farmer, and I guess . . . I don't know how it is in this area, but there had been farmers, even though tobacco has held its own a little bit, we're not in as bad shape, maybe, as the Midwest.

BESUDEN: No.

KLEE: [inaudible] that way, but there had been a lot of farmers that have gone broke.

BESUDEN: Yes, I think . . . I think some through poor management and others have just . . . they've held on as long as they could, and then when the high interest rates came up, it was just the straw that broke the camel's back.

KLEE: What about the reduction in quota and price? Has that . . . is that putting a lot of people close to the brink?

BESUDEN: Putting a lot of pressure on them, it really is, because you take over the last five or six years, we're . . . we're raising just about half the tobacco that we used to raise.

[End Tape #1, Side #1]

[Begin Tape #1, Side #2]

KLEE: This is side two of a tape with Mr. Carlisle Besuden. We were . . . we finished up talking about the pressure from the drop in quota, and then the drop in price over the last few years. Let me move to a little . . . a few other subjects I want to touch on with you. Over the . . . of course . . . in . . . in that time period, it seems like . . . I think farms have gotten bigger. Farmers have gotten older. Is . . . is there some . . . I guess there's just not enough money made on the farm? How does . . . what was some of the information . . .

BESUDEN: Yeah, that's the main thing. We were talking at a farm meeting the other night. We looked around among ourselves, and we were all about twenty-five or twenty-seven when this particular group was formed more or less, and now we're all . . . we're all fifty to fifty-five or sixty years old, and there's no young people coming in. There's just no young people coming in. There's just no one around to . . . to take over. It takes so much money now to . . . to . . . to get geared up to farm. You're talking about a small tractor at fifteen thousand and if you have a farm of any size, you're talking about thirty to forty or forty-five thousand dollars for one . . . just one machine. And then you have to buy something for it to pull. [chuckles] So . . . so that . . . there's another fifteen thousand or so to put out for the machine that you're gonna pull behind the tractor, and . . . and interest above ten percent, I know we used to figure if we made five or six percent on . . . on the farm in a year, it was a good year. And when you're paying ten percent and above for interest, you're minus four or five percent right there. And over a period of twenty years, that's . . . that's . . . works up to a hundred percent real quick. [chuckle]

KLEE: What about the related industries? The towns, the equipment dealers, the fertilizer companies? Again, you know, from your reporting and so forth did . . . have you seen an impact there too?

BESUDEN: I can remember when a small community like had four different tractor dealers in it, and we have one now. And I've heard them remark if it wasn't for their repair business that they would go out. They're just not selling enough new machinery because the farmer can't afford to. He . . . he . . . something breaks, he welds it or has it repaired or a piece replaced, and that's the only thing that's holding some of this machinery together that's in the community now.

KLEE: Let me . . . let me ask you. Course you're now working two days a week for the co-op. What are your responsibilities there?

BESUDEN: Public relations mostly. I . . . I put out a newsletter about every two or three weeks, depending on what's going on in the tobacco community. And we're trying to get out to the farmer through . . . through the newspapers and radio what . . . what our role in the tobacco program is. And so people will know more about what the co-op does. They just know tobacco goes to the pool and then they really don't . . . most of them don't realize what happens after that. They get . . . they get paid for their crop and that's it, you know, it's gone. But the pool is playing a more important role in the tobacco program now because the companies are required to buy so much tobacco. It can be purchased through the co-op or . . . or on the active market. And it still counts as part of their purchase. In other words, I think they guarantee the government that they'll buy ninety percent of what they say they're going to buy. They give them a figure every year, because that goes along toward setting the quota for the following year.

KLEE: So does that mean there's more reporting responsibilities for the co-op? They have to keep track of things a little closer?

BESUDEN: Yes, uh-huh. And we're getting quite a bit of interest now from the companies. They're wanting a lot more samples, which . . . which they . . . they . . . determines how much tobacco they'll want out of the pool or what price, what blend. So things are really picking up. The cooperative is playing a lot . . . lot more role in the . . . in the burley.

KLEE: That's one of the things I was wanting to talk to you about next, and one of the things that . . . that people that aren't initiated don't know is that there are literally probably dozens and dozens of tobacco group of one stripe or another, and they all have different roles. And I wanted to kind of go down through the list and let you . . . let you give me a reaction to what their role is and what kinds of things they're doing. You know, how you think, you know, their activities have gone over the years. Farm Bureau, for example.

BESUDEN: Farm Bureau is probably one of the two major tobacco groups. Course I'm sure each group thinks it's a major group, but in my opinion, Farm Bureau is a major group. They are . . . because they are the largest farm organization and so naturally they'd play a large role in tobacco. And they have a very active president and tobacco committee that is committed to the tobacco program. So they're . . . they're right on top of every little item that comes up about tobacco. They jump right on it. I guess probably the second of the top two would be the Council for Burley Tobacco, which is sort of an umbrella group of the entire industry, so naturally it would play a large part. The companies are involved there, and the dealers, the processors, the growers and just everyone, so those two probably are the major . . . two major groups.

KLEE: Let me ask you about the warehousemen. How . . . have they been pretty much a full partner or . . . in some of the changes, or . . .

BESUDEN: Yes, I . . . I think for the most part. There were some warehousemen that fought the change from hand-tied to baled of course because it would mean a different way of handling tobacco. But most of them could see that it was gonna be a . . . a savings, even for the warehouse. Cause they can handle it a lot quicker. And they . . . course they're . . . they're a private industry. I mean, they're there for profit and so they work a little different than, say, the Farm Bureau and the Council for Burley Tobacco. They've been . . . they . . . they've been committed to as good a tobacco program as they can get because it means money in their pockets the better the program is.

KLEE: So the programs . . .

BESUDEN: Yeah. So for the most part, they have been very cooperative.

KLEE: This is kind of a related subject. I was in Cynthiana before Christmas, and someone over there . . . it was a warehouseman, in fact . . . told me that the company was buying some tobacco privately. Is . . . has . . . have you seen very much of that go on? You know . . .

BESUDEN: No, that . . . that's been done for . . . over a number of years, but it's a very minor . . . a very minor part of sales. That just isn't done much. I . . . there's been some talk that companies maybe would like to negotiate with . . . with a few big farmers in each county if the program went under, and . . . and have a . . . a collection point at maybe one of the larger warehouses in the community. And . . . but there's a lot of pitfalls in that, and of course, you would be taking a price that the companies set, and naturally they're gonna set a price to where they can make money. So it would be . . . it wouldn't be the best for the farmer to go to that . . . go that route. And most of them see that, so they . . . they won't even consider selling to a straight . . . direct to a tobacco company.

KLEE: Course there . . . there's some criticism of the auction system too. You know, particularly we've had some years, and I'm sure you recall them where we had some one-price tobacco. And, you know . . . course the . . . the thinking is, by some farmers, well these people, you know, they're just taking care of themselves. You know, there's not really an auction going on. What . . . what's the response to that? How . . .

BESUDEN: I . . . I think most farmers realize it's more of an allotment type of sale than it is a natural auction. They have to go through the formality more or less because that's the law. But it has a lot to do with allotment and tobacco companies are hard to figure out. One year, they'll buy everything at one price, which was a good price at that time. That was in `80, if I remember right.

KLEE: [inaudible]

BESUDEN: I knew people that swept their stripping room floors and that included dirt and chewing gum wrappers and candy wrappers and everything . . .

KLEE: Bought that too?

BESUDEN: They bought it at the very same price. This year, they said some of the tobacco was a little too yellow and they shied away from it and wouldn't buy it, but it shows that there is a tobacco shortage like there was, high demand and a shortage of tobacco like there was in `80, that they can use it. So . . . but it's just like any other . . . any other business. If you have more tobacco or more of anything that you want, naturally, you're gonna pick out the best and let the other slide. But if you're desperate for whatever they have, you're gonna . . . you're gonna take it all.

KLEE: Course, I guess . . . well, it's hard to . . . without . . . you'd have . . . you'd have to just ask the manufacturer how they . . . how they decide to go ahead and bid along with everybody else.

BESUDEN: Yeah, there's . . .

KLEE: Those kind of things.

BESUDEN: Course there's always talk of collusion, but that's against the law and I don't really think that happens. I think they . . . they just . . . they're smart enough to know that there's only six major tobacco companies. And . . . and . . . in the United States and so they can see what maybe the major one or two companies are gonna bid, and they just follow that around, so . . .

KLEE: Somebody sets the pace.

BESUDEN: . . . because they know they're not gonna buy all the tobacco, and why raise the price, why outbid them when you could save your company money by just waiting until one company fills their order, and then you jump in at the same price and . . .

KLEE: And get . . .

BESUDEN: . . . and buy, yeah.

KLEE: . . . most of what you need. A couple of other organizations that are involved here. Of course, the co-op . . . you talked about it a little bit as you . . . you know, kind of your new employer, but we . . . you mentioned they're taking a more active role. The co-op's essential to the program. It's kind of the center of the program.

BESUDEN: Well, of course, it takes all the tobacco that does . . . that doesn't bring a cent above the price support.

KLEE: Right.

BESUDEN: And then we process it and . . . and . . . put it into blends and store it, and then when the companies need an extra supply of tobacco in the middle of the year, when the market . . . when there's no tobacco on the market, then they can come to the co-op and order whatever they want. And of course they charge processing charges, and storage charges and interest charges on the money borrowed to buy the tobacco and they don't get it free. [chuckle]

KLEE: Course the . . . it's better, I guess, is what you're saying there, if . . . if the manufacturers can plan it out well enough to know what it needs, they get off a little cheaper maybe by going ahead and buying it at the auction.

BESUDEN: Um, hmm. Um, hmm.

KLEE: But the advantage of the co-op [inaudible] is, there's a ready supply there all the time.

BESUDEN: There's a year-round supply. And also, usually we'll have at least four . . . four years . . . some tobacco from four years . . . four different crop years. If they want a little darker or redder tobacco, well one of those four years will . . . will have that dark tobacco. If they need, in their blends, if they say they need a little more of a certain type tobacco, then they can usually find it in one of those four or five years that we have on hand.

KLEE: How do . . . how do you-all make your decisions? For example, about how you're gonna blend your tobacco? I know you use . . . well I don't know what the term . . . for example, [inaudible] Parker Tobacco.

BESUDEN: We . . . we have worked with the tobacco companies on what they think they will . . . the types of blends that they can use. And we'll put four or five grades of tobacco within the same leaf category in a blend, and that . . . it's worked out with the companies so that it's advantageous to them as well as us. We don't have to have . . . separate the tobacco so much . . . so many different grades, cause we had a hundred and . . . hundred and two grades, I believe? Or something like that. And it would be pretty difficult to put each individual grade in a . . . in a nine hundred pound hogshead and keep it all separated. So we have about . . . probably twenty different blends that we . . . we put all this tobacco in.

KLEE: And the co-op does all this kind of administratively? I mean, the actual doing of it [inaudible] and so forth . . .

BESUDEN: Right.

KLEE: . . . how many . . . how many people are you working with out in the state?

BESUDEN: Well our . . .

KLEE: [inaudible]

BESUDEN: . . . our cooperative at handles tobacco for five states. And then the Burley Stabilization Preparation in handles the poor tobacco from three states. And we've had five processors for our co-op in that process this tobacco from us. And they're scattered over the state pretty much, so if tobacco . . . whichever tobacco is as close to that processor that he gets . . .

KLEE: For example, up in my region, up in . . . Parker Tobacco would handle tobacco from .

BESUDEN: Um, hmm. Yeah. And northern , up in there. Right. We have one down in and then, I think two in , and so . . . and also, if one gets filled up, sometimes there's more tobacco going to the pool in a certain section of the state than the others. So if one . . . one processor gets filled up, then we will have to truck tobacco a little farther than we normally would to give it to another processor that's not getting too far behind.

KLEE: And then this tobacco that's one, two, three, four years . . . four crop years, it's stored all over the place too. In warehouses.

BESUDEN: That's all kept on the books and we can go to . . . we can go to any warehouse in any row of hogsheads in that warehouse and know exactly where . . . the tobacco's there, or to get a sample for . . . for a company or anything like that. It's quite a bookkeeping . . .

KLEE: [chuckle] That's what I was thinking . . .

BESUDEN: . . . situation.

KLEE: What about foreign buyers and foreign markets over the years? Of course, we said in the 70's, they were importing into us, so I guess there was always a limited amount of us exporting cause they want our . . . our tobacco. What kinds of buyers have you seen come and go, and who's important now?

BESUDEN: The foreign buyers like the very best quality tobacco. Evidently they have the money to buy it because it seems like money is no . . . no problem to them. They'll buy the very highest priced tobacco. And they'll buy it through the dealers. We don't sell direct to any foreign buyer.

KLEE: Oh I see.

BESUDEN: We sell through a dealer in the , so the foreign . . . foreign purchasers would give their order to a dealer in [inaudible].

KLEE: Well now like Southwestern would be a dealer, and maybe the Japanese might be buying through them.

BESUDEN: Yeah. Yeah.

KLEE: Or the . . .

BESUDEN: And of course the American companies buy direct from the market for the foreign buyers also.

KLEE: Now who, what kind of nationalities . . . course the Germans and Japanese is who you hear quite frequently. What other foreign buyers . . .

BESUDEN: The Chinese are coming in now pretty . . . pretty strong. They're probably the only other major buyer.

KLEE: Have there been any we've lost over the years?

BESUDEN: No, not . . . not that I know of. Course I'm not really up to date on that aspect of the tobacco business because that's through the buyers, but . . . but none that I've heard about.

KLEE: I wanna talk about a few individuals of course that are . . . that have been very prominent in tobacco and let you give me your impressions about them and your dealings with them. Mr. John Berry that's from . I'm talking about the older gentleman now. I think the younger gentleman, Mr. . . .

BESUDEN: Is now president . . . that's his son.

KLEE: Uh-huh. . . did . . . did you have very many dealings with him over the years and what kind of individual was he as far as . . .

BESUDEN: Not really. He was pretty much retired when I started working with the co-op two years ago. But . . .

KLEE: I was thinking [inaudible] . . .

BESUDEN: . . . he's been with them . . . he's been with them over the years and he's been a very influential leader. He was president at one time and recent . . . in more recent years, he was their counsel.

KLEE: Legal counsel, right.

BESUDEN: So he did all the legal work and whatnot, so . . . but I . . . he's been involved in it probably for forty years or more.

KLEE: What about Ira Massie? You said you had some dealings with him?

BESUDEN: Ira was . . . was a great promoter of burley tobacco. I think he . . . he was a great emissary of the program and . . . and tried to promote burley wherever he went and he had a television program that he always had burley tobacco [inaudible] on to be able to comment on Saturday, and . . .

KLEE: The reason I asked that, it seems to me like, with his death, that kind . . . there was kind of a void. There's no person that's kind of identified in the same way that he was.

BESUDEN: Really, there is not. No one has taken over his . . . his place. He . . . he had, like I say, a television program and they don't have that anymore.

KLEE: Radio program . . .

BESUDEN: And he wrote radio . . . wrote columns for farm magazines and they . . . they really sort of . . . like in the newspaper business, once a farm editor or reporter leaves or retires or dies, or whatever, they don't replace them. [chuckle]

KLEE: Yeah. Don't fill it in. Let me ask you about a couple other trends that I've seen. And of course, when you . . . and I don't know how much contact you have here locally . . . it seems that at one time in this state there was a significant number of black farmers. And that number has dwindled some. Was that something that ever came to anybody's notice or just kind of happened?

BESUDEN: No, I don't . . . I don't really think so. I just . . . I think it's sort of like any . . . any other race that really . . . that they're not any new ones coming on when the older ones retired or died or got out of the business. Just no one took their place, so . . . we probably had a greater percentage of white . . . white farmers quit farming or are not farming now as black or . . .

KLEE: Just there weren't as many blacks to begin with.

BESUDEN: [inaudible] Yeah.

KLEE: What about tenant farmers? It seems that, again, that's another thing, that the rate of tenancy . . . there used to be, you know, little . . . little tenant houses dotted all over the place.

BESUDEN: Now it's mostly . . . it's gone to . . . to farmers that are raising other people's crops. In my situation, the man that raises my crop raises for five other farmers down the road, and so he's . . . he doesn't really have a farm of his own, but he's . . . he raises cattle and tobacco on a fifty-fifty basis on a number of different farms, so it's coming more to that now than just general . . . just the typical tenant farmer which we used to hear about.

KLEE: Of course, there's a few people like that. I guess they're actually making a living off farming. But they have to do it by leasing numerous crops . . .

BESUDEN: Um, hmm. Has to be . . .

KLEE: Has to be a big operation.

BESUDEN: Has to be on a large scale. Yeah, I . . . I know numerous people that are raising three, four, five, six crops at one time, and they just . . . they just can't make it on the small farm anymore.

KLEE: You're writing press releases now, and I guess you're trying to . . . as you said, it . . . I guess it's kind of difficult isn't it, if you don't have a person there at the local paper that is in charge of that . . . that . . . you know, no farm editors, no farm reporters. How do you . . . how do you try to get the word out?

BESUDEN: Well, fortunately I . . . I knew enough people to . . . to talk to, to get the information I needed without maybe calling the newspaper to find out what they're reporter happened to be working on at that time. Course being maybe a little more directly involved in the tobacco business through the cooperative, sometimes I'll call the farm reporter and tell him what is happening so he can write a story on it. [chuckle]

KLEE: Yeah, that's what I mean.

BESUDEN: But we put the press releases out to all the daily and . . . and weekly newspapers in the tobacco communities. And hopefully, they will print part or all of the press releases. And also all the radio stations in the tri-state. So we have about . . . let's see, I have a mailing list of about four hundred fifty people, either . . . either reporters on newspapers, tobacco officials, radio stations and whatnot. So we're getting . . . we're trying to get the word out the best we can.

KLEE: Now from . . . as a person that's reporting for the cooperative, the . . . the word from the cooperative is we're in a pretty good situation. I . . . let me make the question more direct: it seems to me to be hard to read whether things are good or bad. For example, where some of the markets are finishing up selling this week, and forty percent of the crop's gone to the pool which happens at the end of the selling season anyway, but it seems to me with reduced quotas, they're even talking about raising the quota next year.

BESUDEN: Yeah. [chuckle]

KLEE: That . . . that seems to be a contradiction if forty percent's going to the pool, and they're talking about raising quotas. Explain that.

BESUDEN: Well, actually even though . . . even though more tobacco is going to the pool, we . . . we sold a lot more out of the previous years from the pool, so actually the . . . the overall pool supply is not increasing, and the companies this year guaranteed . . . have guaranteed the government that they will buy twenty-four percent more tobacco next year on the `88 . . . this actually this year, the `88 crop. So that . . . that allows the . . . the government to actually increase the quota to some extent. Now I . . . I think we had a newspaper article the other day said six and a half percent. I think the final outcome on that will be closer to three and a half percent. Three to three and a half. So . . . in . . . like I say, we've had . . . we've had upwards in the forty percent in cuts the last five or six years, so . . .

KLEE: Does this . . . in your view, does this mark kind of a turn-around you think?

BESUDEN: Yeah I really do. I think this new program that . . . that began in `85 really didn't take effect, I guess 'til the `86 crop. Time . . . time flies. Sometimes I missing a year.

KLEE: Yeah. Right.

BESUDEN: Course the act actually came into effect in `85 and so . . . so it is [inaudible] around now. Less imports. Even though less tobacco is being used domestically, we're exporting substantially more tobacco through cigarettes or . . . or just general leaf to . . . to cigarette companies in foreign markets.

KLEE: What about the politicians? Statesmen, maybe, we better use that word. [chuckle] You know, the people over the years as you've reported, have they . . . how do you see them as advocates of the farmers? People like [Mitch] McConnell and [Wendell] Ford and [] Huddleston and . . . and . . .

BESUDEN: I think fortunately in and most of the other tobacco states, we've had real good legislators that . . . that have really come out for tobacco. And if it hadn't been for them, I think the program would have gone to the wayside long before this because they're a lot of opponents in other states that don't raise tobacco. They don't really probably understand the importance, and naturally it's not important to their state.

KLEE: Sure.

BESUDEN: And they see this . . . they see this money being loaned out to the cooperatives to purchase tobacco in the tobacco states. Well, they would like to get that money in their state, maybe, to build roads or do something else that would get them elected the next time. [chuckle] So our . . . our senators and representatives have . . . have just gone above and beyond the call of duty, really, to help the tobacco program.

KLEE: Did . . . did you have occasion to have to call them about articles, or did they call you . . .

BESUDEN: Oh yes. Definitely. I quoted . . . I quoted the . . . several of them numerous times over what was happening in . Depending on the legislation that had to do with tobacco. When it . . . when it got off the ground level so to speak in the farm groups and got to Washington. Then I would call them and ask their comments on how they felt about it or how they voted and naturally they were always for the program [chuckle] but I was in . . .

KLEE: Anybody in particular stick out in your mind that was particularly friendly or . . . cooperative?

BESUDEN: Congressman [Larry] probably was the most helpful. They would . . . they would actually call me on occasion. If I didn't know something was coming up for a vote . . . a day earlier than maybe I thought or something, then they would call me and let me know that such-and-such had passed or . . . then I could get it in the paper that night. Usually . . . usually it was about thirty minutes before I was to get off work.

KLEE: [chuckle] Yeah.

BESUDEN: When they'd call and so I was there for another hour and a half or two hours. [chuckle] Writing this story.

KLEE: Right. What about the farmers themselves? Have they . . . that quality and so forth slip over the years? It's kind of a criticism, I know the manufacturers often . . . often make and I know there's concerns at the co-op about that.

BESUDEN: I . . . I think the majority of farmers try to raise a good quality crop to begin with, but then they get it on the market and . . . and . . . are not paid for it. And it sort of . . . defeats the idea that the companies are always trying to install in the farmers to . . . we have to have quality tobacco to use or to sell overseas. And then, so the farmer tries to do that, and then . . . and then when he goes to market, they pay the same amount if you mixed it all up. I know personally that tobacco, the crop we sold this year, was all stripped in one . . . one grade, and sent to market and they . . . they . . . actually didn't even mark it a mixed grade. They just . . . just sold as . . . as a one-grade tobacco and got a good price for it, so . . . and that's not what the companies will tell you. They want it stripped in two, three, four, and five grades sometimes.

KLEE: Yeah.

BESUDEN: But they don't back it up at the market place. And course that's what the farmer is looking.

KLEE: Right. I appreciate you talking to me.

[End Tape #1, Side #2]

[End of Interview]