Oral History Interview with Clayton Alfred Klingenfus

[Begin Tape #1, Side #1]

KLEE: The following is an unrehearsed interview with Clayton Klingen-, Klingenfus . . . I'll try to get better on that . . . for the Kentucky Oral History Commission. The interview is being conducted at on by John Klee. To begin, why don't you tell me a little bit about your background, your training, how you got in this position.

KLINGENFUS: All right. I'm a native of . I was born and raised on a farm, dairy farm, tobacco farm. I . . . went to the , . Graduated in `64. Graduated in 1968 from the .

KLEE: What did you study there?

KLINGENFUS: Political science and history, and secondary education. I was actively involved in 4H growing up, and FFA [Future Farmers of America]. My life centered around rural organizations and my father and my uncle would rotate back and forth on the . . . on the district ASCS [Agriculture Stabilization Conservation Service] Committee, and so I've grown up with some knowledge and understanding of tobacco programs. After graduating from the , I went to Asbury Theological Seminary for a year and a half, and then transferred to Lexington Theological Seminary where I got my Doctor of Ministries Degree in 1975.

KLEE: Um, hmm. And then what happened from there?

KLINGENFUS: Okay. I . . . I . . . let me talk about my church background a little bit.

KLEE: Okay.

KLINGENFUS: I grew up in the Christian Church, Disciples of Christ in my childhood. In my teenage years, we moved to Centerfield, which is Methodist Community and attended the there and went into the as a pastor in college, and pastored the [inaudible] in , a very small farm area which was heavily dependent on tobacco. And then two years in Olive Branch United Methodist Church in . I spent six months as Associate Minister of Youth at . Spent seventeen months in the . . . at the Methodist Home of Versailles as a houseparent, and I've been here in New Castle since November of 1970 as pastor of this church.

KLEE: Oh I see. Did some of your . . . your college and pastoring overlap, then?

KLINGENFUS: Yes, it did, quite a bit. But I've been here at New Castle Christian Church for seventeen years, and pastored the congregation that has many farmers in it. We're a teacher church; we're a church that has . . . has some small businessmen in it also.

KLEE: Um, hmm. How important is farming to this area?

KLINGENFUS: It is . . . farming is almost everything. This . . . dependence upon farm . . . farmers and farm revenue in this area . . . I mean, we would just right blow away if it wasn't for . . . for our tobacco and dairy and beef cattle industry here. There's . . . we got . . . in Eminence, there's some small industry, light industry. There's some sense of . . . has some bedroom community nature to it, especially towards the western part of the county, but predominantly, it's agrarian.

KLEE: You were raised on a tobacco farm, and you know, there's a lot of tobacco farmers here in the area. In . . . as part of that agricultural community, how important is tobacco to the agricultural community?

KLINGENFUS: Tobacco is . . . it's hard to say exactly what-all tobacco means to this area. For some farmers, it's their total livelihood. They will never go to the . . . to the bank or to the PCA [Production Credit Association] or to the FMHA and get money necessary for putting out their tobacco crop, and included in that will be the cost of living that year, with anticipation that at the end of the tobacco season, they'll be able to pay all that back, and be able to make plans for the next year's crop. And for those people, tobacco's all in all. They . . . many of the people here have never worked in what they call public work jobs. They've always relied on their small farm incomes as their livelihood and there's quite a scramble to . . . to get leased tobacco nowadays because there's people . . . instead of . . . as tobacco . . . tobacco prices fall, instead of dropping out of tobacco, they think, well we'll just lease more tobacco, and so they get more and more leased and they're . . . there's quite a bit of competition lately for that tobacco leased poundage. The . . . and so there's . . . there's . . . for some people, it's . . . it's everything. For others, it is a crop that provides probably the only profit on the farm. It is . . . not . . . and they have dairy and they may have beef cattle and that sort of pays the bills. But the profit is in the tobacco. And when that tobacco check comes in, then that's a time of celebration. There's others that . . . that would view themselves, would call themselves dairy farmers or beef farmers, but they are very dependent on the tobacco to make the payment to FMHA, and to really pay off the land itself.

KLEE: Tobacco, then, is something . . . it's an income they can plan on?

KLINGENFUS: Yeah.

KLEE: Because of the quotas and so forth.

KLINGENFUS: Right. Another factor, too, is we have a lot of people who are small . . . grow on small acreages, who work in factory work, or . . . or in other public work jobs, and then they have tobacco on the side as their . . . as extra income and as . . . and yet it's very important because everybody becomes dependent on tobacco eventually. If you stayed with it long enough, you become dependent. You know it's gonna be there at the end of the year.

KLEE: Sure. The . . . the demographics of this area, are there . . . are there quite a few older people that live in the community?

KLINGENFUS: Yes, I . . . this . . . this community . . . it's not as bad as an Appalachian community where you find a great number of elderly people. There's a . . . a broad range of ages in , but I'd say that we tend to be towards the . . . on the older side. I . . . I don't . . . I'm sure this would be available somewhere, but I don't know what those figures are.

KLEE: The only reason I was wondering, I wondered if there were older, maybe retired people that had that tobacco poundage on . . . on their small farms forever and have that leased . . .

KLINGENFUS: Yes . . .

KLEE: . . . depending on . . .

KLINGENFUS: This is the . . . this is the normal trend, is that as people get older, they lease it out. They'll . . . lease it out to family members and sometimes they lease it out to neighbors or to others that come asking for it and after awhile it becomes much more profitable for them to lease it out than try to raise it or to manage it.

KLEE: Right. As a pastor, pastoring farmers and others of course, what kinds of special challenges . . . well, let me . . . before I get to that, what kind of people are these to deal with? What . . . in other words, as compared . . . you were in and worked in other areas as a student, had lots of contacts.

KLINGENFUS: Okay. These people are very proud people. They're very self-sufficient. They pride themselves on self-sufficiency. They have a real hostility toward those who they see as being on the dole. And they . . . they . . . are . . . are very much caught up in the Protestant work ethic. They believe that if you work hard enough, you'll make it, which some of them, especially the young people, are beginning to get very cynical about that attitude. But they have a very strong sense of . . . of an importance of work and industry. These are people that . . . that . . . sometimes fall in two camps. You have those who . . . whose farms are paid for. They're secure, they're comfortable with the situation as it is. And then you have a number of young farmers who are struggling just to make it, always living on the brink of bankruptcy, who . . . who's every decision they make on the farm is a matter of life or death of their enterprise. And . . . and some times the . . . the older, landed farmers do not have real good understanding or sympathy with these other young farmers. So it . . . you know, there's tends to be some polarization over those issues. But . . . and so you have two different trains of thought growing up simultaneously, but everyone's basically holding to that concept if you work hard enough, you'll make it. That is a source of pride: "I have made it. I've worked hard and I have this to show for it." Others say, "I am working work, I'm trying to make it, but . . . but everything seems to going against me."

KLEE: How are they to deal with . . . how are those people to deal with as a pastor?

KLINGENFUS: Again . . .

KLEE: There's a stereotype of rural people that . . . and you know, in history and literature, you know, that `country is closer to God' and those kind of things.

KLINGENFUS: They're self-sufficiency, their . . . their feeling that . . . that they're out there making it is often couched in terms . . . well, God is the one we depend on. We depend on him for the rain, we depend on him for the weather. The factors . . . the climate factors have to be there and we know that, but . . . there's always that `but' you know . . . we've got to work at it. We've got to make it go. And there's . . . there's a sense that God helps those that help themselves. And that . . . that attitude is pretty prevalent throughout our society here and to that extent, it's not such a . . . they don't think of themselves as relying on the Lord when it comes down to the nitty-gritty of actually doing work.

KLEE: [inaudible]

KLINGENFUS: We've got to get out there and get it. And . . . and I would like to see a little more reliance on the Lord and a little more . . . appreciation of what he does for us than . . . than this self-sufficiency. Yeah. I . . . although, you know, there's a great source of industry because of that.

KLEE: This . . . when I was looking for someone, I had . . . I was interested in dealing with . . . with people that. . . in religion, that deal with farmers and how they address the moral issue and those kind of things. And when I found the name of this [Father] Fitzgerald, I called him and out of the whole state, the first person he thought of to talk to was a fellow up in Henry County. What kinds of efforts have you made to deal pastorally with people in . . . that live a rural life?

KLINGENFUS: Okay. Well, first of all, let me say I rely a lot on my past experience and my identification of people. Who I am springs forth from that ministry to some extent. I don't wanna go into too much detail on that except to say that I had once thought of going into county extension work or into some field of agriculture to help my people. I was called to the ministry and yet I've always held on to that sense that I want to be involved in ministering to those who are in a rural setting and that's what I basically devoted my life to, to this point. So I rely a great deal on my past experiences to help pastor these people. I've been involved in establishing programs that I hope will be effective in meeting some needs. We've . . . I and a number of people in the community . . . have organized the Community Farm Alliance for the purpose of trying to come to grips with the problems that we're facing in the market place; trying to come to grips with the emotional, economic, spiritual questions that are raised by the present crisis that the small . . . small family farmer is facing. My church has been very supportive of this. I initiated it, the congregation has backed me on it. We . . . so we host the CFA in our Fellowship Hall once a month, and . . . and the church allows me time to . . . to invest in this particular work. I'm also on the Rural Life Issues Task Force of the Kentucky Council of Churches. In this organization, we're trying to put together workshops around the state that sensitizes farmers, mental health professionals, other caregivers with the problem the small family farmer is facing. Not to look at it in economic and demographic terms, but to look at it as . . . as . . . as the personal crisis it is to the individual farmer and to his family.

KLEE: Let me bring a little bit more out from you on those two organizations. The Community Farm Alliance is mostly a Henry County-based group.

KLINGENFUS: There's two areas. We're almost like two pockets: one is and the other is . We have some communication between each other. We're very much alike in our dependence upon tobacco and . . . and small family farming. We're geographically pretty much separated and . . . and our histories are somewhat different, but we are tied together with those elements I spoke of earlier.

KLEE: Now you said you meet once a month.

KLINGENFUS: Um, hmm.

KLEE: Just bring farmers in? What do you plan? Your agendas . . . how you're going to approach this problem?

KLINGENFUS: Sometimes I don't think we're very effective in bringing farmers in. Basically, it's a group of farmers and community people who have a great valuing of the small family farm. We're basically a pretty small group but we'd like to larger, but we go with what we have. I think this is a fairly influential group in terms of overall state and federal policies that we're able to influence. We feel some strength in the group in being able to do that. We got some very articulate people, some very well educated people working with us in this program and . . . and that are farmers who have some ability to articulate the position of the small family farmer.

KLEE: Yeah, I . . . I . . . I've noticed at one point . . . I don't know, this was maybe over a year ago, where a meeting was held. A forum, evening forum and I think there was some people from . . .

KLINGENFUS: Right. Right. We . . .

KLEE: . . . that were involved.

KLINGENFUS: . . . involved a number of experts in finance, and they came and held a workshop for us here to deal with the problems of . . . of the present economic circumstance of the farmer, to deal with the problems of farm foreclosure.

KLEE: Um, hmm. So in that way, you were trying to educate people?

KLINGENFUS: Yeah, it's an education process. We realize that those who need it the most aren't gonna be there. There's . . . again, the pride and self-sufficiency of farmers oftentimes keeps them from the very thing they need. We found that it's the farm wife who is most willing to address the real issue of the economic crisis. I found that from my own personal counseling. I found it from my involvement in the group and other people's experience.

KLEE: You also take political kinds of action?

KLINGENFUS: Um, hmm. We're involved in . . . we're . . . we're promoting the Harkin-Gephart bill in the . . . in the congress right now, hoping that the . . . the . . . this bill will alleviate some of the stresses that the farmers are . . . are facing right now.

KLEE: This deals with imports?

KLINGENFUS: Imports and . . . import quotas and it deals with . . . I like the Harkin bill because it is a . . . a program that doesn't rely on the government to subsidize it, but essentially to establish what we have in the tobacco program right now on other . . . other commodities so that . . . so that we're not out-producing ourselves to death, and establish some . . . some sense of quotas within . . . within our farming enterprise.

KLEE: Just a minute. [microphone adjustment] You mentioned this Kentucky Life Issues Task For-, Task Force of the Kentucky Council of Churches. I have several questions dealing with that. Tell me about that task force first.

KLINGENFUS: Okay. We were organized out of the Kentucky Commission on Hunger and . . . which is one of the sub-branches of the Kentucky Council of Churches. And the task force on hunger felt a need for a subcommittee that could look into the problem of the small family farmer. They feel like . . . I believe . . . it's my understanding they felt like that the decline of the small family farmer means that production of food is going to be in the hands of fewer and fewer people who could use that power to raise the price of food and . . . and control the destiny of the nation, which is a real concern of mine also. They felt like that among . . . there . . . there was a great deal of stress and a real sense of tragedy in the loss of the small family farm on the basis of the individuals who were caught up in that crisis. And they now, who were once the producers of food, for some of them, they themselves are suffering hunger. And so to deal with that, this . . . this Rural Life Issues Task Force was established to come to grips with that.

KLEE: Um, hmm. What have you-all . . . have you-all met? Have you . . . have you been working?

KLINGENFUS: Um, hmm.

KLEE: What . . . what are your goals?

KLINGENFUS: We've been meeting for about a year, a year and a half I guess. I've been a part of it since March of . . . of `86. And our . . . our goals are to establish . . . well, it . . . it's to establish some sense of empathy and understanding on the part of ministers and health professionals, caregivers throughout the state to influence the development of legislative programs that would be beneficial to the farmers in Kentucky. And to influence federal legislation. Also, our . . . we're hoping to establish some response teams in various areas to meet emotional, physical, sort of take a holistic approach to the problems that small family farmers are facing.

KLEE: That brings me to the next question which kind of deals with . . . your . . . has religion, church organizations, Kentucky Council of Churches . . . I don't wanna single out any certain group, but has . . . has religion kind of been slow to respond to this problem? Could they do more? Is it a low priority? What's your sense of that?

KLINGENFUS: I've been really happy with the way in which the denominations, [inaudible] of those denominations have responded to the need. I think that ironically with the . . . the large, seemingly distant denominations who have rallied to the cause of the small family farmer rather than the local congregations. Many of the local congregations are very slow to . . . to respond to these needs of farmers. You know, we've seen statistics that are related to different interview of people who have suffered farming problems, especially out in Iowa and the Midwest, and they always list the church in . . . in order of helping, way below the banks and lawyers and . . . and sometimes the very people who are the adversaries of the small family farmers [chuckles], the church is rated below them. They . . . there's been a sense of . . . that the church, or the local congregation has stood in judgment of their failures and . . . and so they felt like the church would judge them. But whether or not that's an accurate . . . accurate portrayal of those individual congregations, I don't know. I think not, but I think that . . . that people have that perception.

KLEE: Feeling, uh-huh.

KLINGENFUS: I think that we have been slow to take the initiative in ministering to these people. Again, I think it's out of the fact that we, as ministers and . . . and . . . and congregation, are afraid that we're going to rob people of their pride and dignity. And again, farmers are . . . are . . . that I know, are very, very proud people and want to maintain their dignity even in the midst of great hardship. And . . . and sometimes their masking their of problems has caused the church to be unresponsive.

KLEE: I guess you . . . you kind of answered this, but a . . . a pastor and a congregation can take the approach that, you know, this is really outside our realm. This is not something we do. This really doesn't deal with faith and so forth.

KLINGENFUS: I would say especially among the more conservative churches, which view their ministry in terms of just proclaiming the gospel only, and looking at it very narrowly. And that . . . but I think among moderate to liberal churches, there's much more empathy for . . . for the human tragedy that's involved with it.

KLEE: Let me talk about some specifics with you in your . . . in your dealings. You have had to counsel people that . . . that are having trouble on the farm. How does that . . . what form does that counseling take? How do you approach that? What kinds of problems do you face?

KLINGENFUS: Well I . . . again, I take a very low profile and it's . . . one thing I wanna do is establish in the community that I care. That I was involved in organizations that cared. I'm not doing that for my self-promotion. I'm doing it because unless people know that I'm a willing ear, they won't come. And . . . and I can't go to them and say I understand you're having problems, and they'll say who told you that? So I . . . I know better than to approach it that way. But I have had . . . and usually it's the minister's lot . . . I mean . . . like the farmer's wife who comes to me and . . . and will say we are really in distress. What can we do? We're facing foreclosure, who can we turn to for help? What . . . what resources do you have available? And some of the most confidential settings and situations revolve around this particular kind of issue, this concern about the farm foreclosure and . . . and people are much less willing to talk about that than they are marital problems or . . . and . . . and much more concerned that you're going to violate their confidentiality over that than probably any other issue. Even though it's probably a matter of record, public record, more than a lot of other problems.

KLEE: What have you . . . you set up a network of . . . of contacts in the community? What kinds of people do you . . . do you call and say, "Look, what can we do here?" I mean, do you know bankers and . . .

KLINGENFUS: Yeah.

KLEE: . . . PCA people?

KLINGENFUS: We . . . we know bankers, yeah. Lawyers. I know who I can call on who would give good counsel to the small farmers. We have a hotline at the . . . the Community Farm Alliance funds, and we have a young lady who's with Legal Aid who answers that phone for us, and is very knowledgeable about farm issues, farm foreclosure questions, and understands bankruptcy laws and . . . and . . . and I have turned to her on one occasion and found her to be very . . . a very good help and very good encouragement to people that . . . that I . . . I was working . . . that I was working with. As far as networking, with . . . FMHA, there's . . . there's a real resistance to that, and they don't like people meddling in their business, and they feel like we're watch-dogging, and I guess we are to some extent. But we . . . you know, we've had some real frustrations with the bureaucracy and found them to make errors and to use poor judgment sometimes in . . . in the denial of loans. And so, we're hoping to establish better rapport with them in the future. I . . . we . . . we do have, through Farm-Aid, we have a thousand dollars that's made available through Rural Life Issues Task Force, and a thousand dollars made available through the Community Farm Alliance, both from Farm-Aid, and it's for direct needs. I can . . . I can turn to people in . . . in either of those organizations and come up with a hundred dollars, and that's the limit that . . . the ceiling the Farm-Aid people put on it, to meet the needs of utilities or rent . . .

KLEE: Short-run . . .

KLINGENFUS: . . . short-run stuff. I mean, for some of these farmers, that's just a little drop in the bucket of what they need.

KLEE: Sure.

KLINGENFUS: But it does . . . it does let people know we care, and that . . . that farmers are there to help farmers, and there's a real sense of . . . of caring there, among those organizations. Our church gives direct ad- . . . gives direct aid to people. Not just farmers, but many people who are distressed, farmers being one of those.

KLEE: [inaudible]

KLINGENFUS: Uh-huh.

KLEE: What about counseling? Of course you, I guess, do some of that as a pastor?

KLINGENFUS: Um, hmm.

KLEE: Are you . . . community healthy people . . . [inaudible]

KLINGENFUS: Yeah, let me tie that in. Tom Gardner, our community mental health professional here, does a really good job, is well respected among many people, and I'll network with him whenever people are willing to do that. One of the problems is that rural people have a real . . . what's the word? Distrust of mental health. They'll much sooner turn to a minister, and feel some resolution of their problem with a minister than they will with a mental health professional. They . . . they feel that they're going to be labeled as "nuts" if they go there. I know that that's true across the board, with society in general.

KLEE: Yeah, sure.

KLINGENFUS: I used to be a mental health professional for about . . . I spent . . . I spent a year with . . . while I was a student with Tri-County . . . Tri-County Mental Health Services here. So I'm . . . I . . . you know, able to see some things from their particular perspective too.

KLEE: Um, hmm.

[End Tape #1, Side #1]

[Begin Tape #1, Side #2]

KLEE: This is side two of a tape with Clayton Klingenfus.

KLINGENFUS: Klingenfus.

KLEE: Klingenfus. We were talking about the kinds of help and so forth people have. I wanna go back and deal with some specific issues and one of them I haven't got into yet, which I guess is the big one, and one of the reasons I wanted to someone in the . . . in the ministry. Tobacco, of course, has become a moral issue. I guess it always . . . to some people, it's been a moral issue. How do . . . and of course you go to these . . . you know, you're in meetings with other ministers at the Kentucky Council of Churches and so forth. And the state is very dependent. We've already talked about the importance of tobacco to these people. How do you . . . how do you look at that? How do you approach that?

KLINGENFUS: Let me . . . go back to my background. As a Disciple, tobacco was never a moral issue. Our denomination's moderate, so liberal enough that . . . that that's never been raised whether or not a person is a good Christian or not. Going into the . . . in a conservative , the first time I ever heard that smoking was immoral and I was a little astonished at that particular position. I never smoked. My family never smoked. I don't . . . I have forty-three Klingenfuses and out of the forty-three, I think two smoke. And . . . and we've raised tobacco for years. But it's not a moral issue. I think it's a matter of health and economics more than anything else [inaudible] smoke. But most of the . . . the people . . . I think, dealing with it as a religious issue, the conservative churches, the . . . the holiness churches, of course, have always taken the stand that it was immoral to smoke, and that it was bad witness to smoke. It was bad for your health. And . . . and in the last few years, I've seen . . . I've seen the liberal churches get on the bandwagon on that, not dealing with it so much as sinful as it is . . . as it is health issues. And now, many of the liberal churches are also trying to encourage people to quit smoking for their own health situation. In our church, when . . . in 1970, I was probably . . . I would say that of the adults, probably forty percent smoked. Right now, it's probably ten percent. I . . . I've never preached on smoking. And like I said earlier, I don't . . . I don't consider it a moral issue. I do . . . I am concerned about their health, and I'd like to see them quit on that basis. Now, that . . . this is really . . . sounds incongruent with the fact that we're very much dependent upon tobacco here in . . . in . There are some people in my church who are . . . who are hostile to those who do not smoke, and I've had people take up smoking because they were under a great deal of social pressure to smoke. If they're gonna raise tobacco, they better start smoking or you're gonna . . . industry's gonna hurt and suffer. And . . . and yet, you know, we're very aware of the fact that tobacco raises some . . . some moral issues in terms that maybe more conservative churches have not addressed, and that is that it's taken good . . . number one, number two, three [inaudible] land out of food production, and put it into production of something that is harmful to the health of the persons of the community. And . . . and some of us have grieved over that. But we're also very aware in the religious community that . . . that you just can't take tobacco from these people cold turkey. That it's . . . that it's something . . . that is a part of our culture, it's part of our economic superstructure of this area that cannot be removed. We've tried some alternative crops. I was personally involved in trying to establish a cucumber industry here. I've called in some people from Paramount Foods to ask them if they would extend to us contracts in this area for . . . for cucumbers. And they were most happy to do that. The price was not very good, but we have many people undertake it, and we had maybe fifty farmers growing cucumbers in various degrees of intensity. Some made good profit, almost as good as tobacco. But the amount of labor involved in it was . . . was very discouraging for most, and impractical and just not economically feasible for many. And there's just a limited number of people that can grow cucumbers anyway. So tobacco has just been our thing, and it would be a great social, economic upheaval for it not to be here. And I think you have to weigh that in light of the moral issues involved. The . . . the . . . the catastrophic tragedy to the individual farm family has to be weighed against the health issues. Many of the people that I . . . I know who are very strong supporters of the tobacco program and tobacco production here, have shared with me their concerns about the production of tobacco on the basis of this particular issue. But it's always takes a back burner to the economics.

KLEE: Right now, the bottom line is there's just nothing to replace tobacco as far as the money is concerned.

KLINGENFUS: Right. I mean, it . . . it's almost immoral for us to grow more soybeans and more corn because those crops erode soil so badly. It's not needed. It's piling up in the warehouses. And . . . and it's unfeasible for us to grow more vegetables, and if we grew more vegetables, we would just be robbing people in Trimble County and other places who are depending on it and who know more about it than we do. It . . . it's . . . it's frightening to think about, you know, alternatives to tobacco because it's going to have economic ramifications for somebody else . . . somewhere else.

KLEE: Right. Plus the . . . some of our land in small plots, there's not way to . . . to use that small plot and generate an income . . .

KLINGENFUS: Right. Oh, it's just . . . I . . . I just can't even conceive anything producing that much money. Except marijuana and [chuckles] and they won't turn to that as an alternative crop.

KLEE: What . . . the program, the tobacco has . . . people's quotas have been cut, the amount of money they get for their tobacco has . . . has been cut. Have you seen an impact, say, in your church collections and the community on those things? Have there been some bankruptcies here in the area?

KLINGENFUS: Um, hmm. Okay, bankruptcies, yeah. There's been several farm bankruptcies in the area. People on the verge of bankruptcy. And in part due to the fact that when they began their . . . their farming enterprise, they anticipated that the price of tobacco would stay the same or rise. And they didn't realize that there was any change in the future, that it would be curtailed. So that . . . that's probably. It is . . . in economic development in has been very slow in the last few years. Fifteen years ago when I was here, there was a lot more services, quite a few more services. More of the storefronts were filled with stores and very successful restaurant at one time. We . . . we now have a restaurant that's struggling but it . . . that's . . . it's been recently established in the last three months, but we went four years, five years without a restaurant at all. It's . . .

KLEE: In the county seat?

KLINGENFUS: . . . in a county seat town, yeah. And people were . . .

KLEE: [inaudible]

KLINGENFUS: . . . in a county seat town, will go to a grocery store and get bread and bologna and make a sandwich and we just . . . but the restaurants do not feel that they can make it. We have . . . I think in the church we . . . it's hard for us to know exactly how much we've been . . . we've suffered from that. We've grown numerically in this church, and we have a number of teachers as our base. We have twenty teachers in this group. So our . . . our financial base is not so threatened by it. Some of the smaller churches in the rural areas, they're pretty well threatened by it. And it . . . and it has hurt them.

KLEE: What about land values? These farms that are foreclosed . . .

KLINGENFUS: Oh, this is . . . this is, I think, one of the more terrible things. Of course, it's had more far-reaching effects than a lot of people are aware of. Many people in this area bought land at a thousand to twelve hundred dollars an acre. And now they . . . when they try to go to the FMHA loan money to buy the land at a thousand, twelve hundred dollars an acre. So they bought the land . . . they go back to FMHA for their production loans, and they say, "Well you can't make it." And they say, "Well, what?" "Well, your land's only worth six hundred dollars an acre. We can't loan you money at the full value of your farm." They say, "Well, we were counting on it." "I'm sorry, the land values have fallen." And . . . and you know, there's really no sensitivity from FMHA about that, you know. Tough luck, as far as the attitude you get. And they say, "Well you're gonna fail." I've had one of my . . . small farmers that I've talked with, went back to FMHA, expecting a loan without any problem. They said, "You're gonna fail." [phone rings] [pause in tape]

KLEE: . . . lack of sensitivity. You were talking about where some of the organizations . . .

KLINGENFUS: Yeah, and they said, in this particular situation to this farmer. He . . . he said, "Well I need that to put out my crop." And they said, "Well, we've looked at all your . . . your figures and all, and we just don't think you can make it." And you know, it was quite a . . . I mean, this man came . . . well, in fact he was hospitalized for two weeks in a psychiatric hospital because of depression that developed from that. And fortunately when he got out of the hospital, some part-time work in . . . in an organization in the area opened up and he was able to get some work there. He's not relying on his farm income as his sole income anymore. To his chagrin. He . . . he'd love to be a full-time farmer but he just cannot do it.

KLEE: Is that another thing that's happened? You mentioned, you know, being a bedroom community. Have people held on to their farms as a lifestyle, but they're . . . they're working in or . . . or elsewhere?

KLINGENFUS: Yeah. They're . . . they're trying to get. One of the problems I've found among middle-aged farmers, a farmer who let's say, in their 50's, I know of a situation where a farmer and his brother, two farmers, brothers, left dairying because of . . . and tobacco . . . because of . . . they could get out through the dairy buy-out. And . . . and so now they're waiting for the check from the government to come. It's been six months late and they are . . . hurting very bad financially. They . . . and they sought jobs in the public sector. Well they . . . they were amazed and eventually settled for a janitor's job. And not because they didn't have the skills to do something else, but they say, "Well, you're fifty years old, you know. I've got all these young people who can come in and do your . . . what you're doing." And it's very demeaning. Very demeaning to him because here's a man that . . . that was able to run a large, successful enterprise, who now is not viewed as being fit for employment. Now that's not true among a lot . . . some other farmers. I . . . my brother left farming after getting into economic problems and was able to get on with a steel company here and has risen through the ranks pretty well. And many farmers do that. They . . . young farmers who leave farming eventually find themselves very employable in the . . . in the public sector because they have demonstrated management skills and those values. Their sense . . . their work ethic is very much in demand. And that's a real threat to a lot of non-farm people searching . . . searching for jobs because it has stressed the market's jobs quite a bit. In this area. And . . . did I address that problem?

KLEE: Yeah. Yeah, I think so. What about . . . and again, I don't know the demographics of this area very well. I see black citizens here in the area. Have . . . are there still black farmers around or have they mostly taken the brunt of it or . . .

KLINGENFUS: In , I can't . . . I don't even know of a black farmer in . I . . . I'm . . . let me think a minute. Yeah, I . . . I know one fella whose . . . who works part-time farming and holds a public job but . . . and he's over seventy. There are no young black farmers who own . . . own land or are in the process of buying land. I've known one or two in . . . in that own land, but they . . . they seek . . . they get some outside employment or are older. Some of them very successful farmers, but always . . . always want to keep their enterprises small. They're not interested in large . . . large production.

KLEE: Well we have . . . that's . . . the reason I bring it up, there's . . . in my area of the state, there's a few black farmers that are very successful, but it's kind of vanishing group.

KLINGENFUS: It really is. And it's . . . that's a really sad commentary on our society. But to . . . to speak of it in relation to farming, it . . . it's not been in existence here in the seventeen years I've been in . We've had some . . . we have a few tenants, blacks. It's funny, we're . . . most of the tenant farmers in are white. Probably eighty percent white, I'd say.

KLEE: What . . . what kinds of ideas, you know, for the future have any of these . . . I know these groups think about that and talk about it. You've hit on it already with alternate crops and so forth. What . . . what happens? What's going to happen?

KLINGENFUS: Well . . .

KLEE: And how do you plan for that?

KLINGENFUS: One CFA meeting, we just about ended our meeting in total futility. We . . . we all . . . after talking about all the problems that we're facing, and all the alternatives to the future, we sat in stunned silence at our own inability to think of anything. We . . . you know, we were about to close the meeting with no resolution to that issue at all.

KLEE: I see. [chuckle]

KLINGENFUS: And I don't have a real good answer to it other than . . . other than to say that I think we're gonna have to face the fact that many small farmers, young farmers are gonna have to have some kind of outside employment and farming's gonna have to be an avocation and not the main vocation. I think they're gonna have to face that fact that . . . I just don't know how this nation of our is ever going to . . . to continue to feed itself off people who have to approach farming as an avocation. But it . . . it . . . but small . . . beef production, there's hard . . . there's very few farmers that rely completely on beef production for their income anymore. They're almost all part-time people.

KLEE: Right.

KLINGENFUS: There's . . . and of course that's very true of tobacco. Tobacco . . . [inaudible] more and more people have outside income. Dairying has to be a full-time enterprise.

KLEE: I was gonna ask you about that when you mentioned it before. Were there very many dairy farmers that took advantage of the buy-out plan?

KLINGENFUS: I know of several. Let me tell you this. I know more that took the buy-out plan than . . . than have been foreclosed upon. [chuckle] No, no there's more that stayed in than bowed out, but . . . but . . . many people already left. Before the buy-out came into effect.

KLEE: That seems to be the [inaudible] particular problem. You mentioned the . . . you know, what do you do for five years while you're out of the dairy business?

KLINGENFUS: I don't think . . . those people should never have hopes of getting back into dairying. I just don't think there's any future for them to come back to in . . . in milk. I think milk production is continuing to rise among the small number of farmers that are left. Those farmers get larger and larger, and more and more efficient. Farm . . . I think dairying lends itself to mechanization more than some other areas of farming, especially tobacco farming. And . . . and so smaller number of farmers are able to handle . . . handle bigger herds. And so those small farmers that got out, I think they're gonna find it's almost impossible to compete when they come . . . try to come back and try again.

KLEE: The . . . a couple of issues that you mentioned. We talked about family farms, and most of our farms, I think, in this whole [inaudible] state are really family farms, but they're not your forty acres and a mule type farm which some people might have a vision of. There's lots of family farms that are big operations. Is . . . you know, is there really a distinction there anymore? Between a family farm and, you know, a bigger operation?

KLINGENFUS: That's something we . . . I find myself always grappling with, trying to come up with a definition of the family farm. Especially the small family farm. [chuckle] My family operates two hundred nine acres in . They have a gross income of around $150,000. And we would be considered a moderate farm, I guess, on a national scale. The . . . it is a family enterprise. I mean, it is owned and operated by my father and my brother. Then there are those who are trying to make it as farmers on a hundred and fifty acres and full-time, but they struggle; they constantly just come out ahead of the foreclosure all the time, and they're becoming more and more aware of the fact that they better start getting some training or getting some other profession in mind because they don't feel like they'll be able to stay with it. We don't see hardly any industrial sized farms. I mean, the large . . . we have one truck farm over on that is owned by a corporation. But it's very unusual. We see a lot of . . . of farmers leasing up large quantities of land and producing large quantities of corn, knocking down fence rows and [inaudible] across grassy waterways with no regard for the land at all. And you always . . . and . . . and . . . and yet, even though they may farm thousands of acres of corn, they're always running just ahead of foreclosure themselves. They're always afraid that . . . that . . . you know, if everybody overproduces, the price of corn's going down. Or you're gonna have a drought and lose it all, and . . . and the fear of that drives them to plow up more and more land . . . F-, FMHA or their creditors say, "You've got to produce more and more in order to pay this back." So the debt itself becomes a slave driver, taskmaster to those people.

KLEE: That brings up . . . you've mentioned in passing a couple times, this concern for the land which, you know, I guess you know in the historical vein, the small family farmer was . . . well, I guess there are different results, but because they were small, and because they used animal fertilizer, animal manure for fertilizer and so forth, they were pretty sound ecologically. But is that another issue that you're very concerned with? Is the ecology of farm land . . .

KLINGENFUS: Yes, I . . . I really have a real concern for it. I don't see that concern shared by many farmers, though, of any size. I'm sure they use a lot . . . most farmers of all sizes, I think, use manure to fertilize with, but all . . . farmers of all sizes also use commercial fertilizers.

KLEE: Right.

KLINGENFUS: So . . . and . . . and farmers of all sizes will use all sorts of chemicals, and most of them have a disregard for that. I . . . I mean, they've got . . . not a disregard, but a . . . they don't . . . they don't put that on the list of priorities of things to be concerned about. But I will say this. The small family farmer is much more concerned about rotation of crops and making sure that he keeps his terraces in place and his grassy waterways grassy. Will plow in contour. Will keep more land in pasture and . . . and . . . and will observe more of those kind of passive econom-, ecological strengths than . . . than . . . than a large farmer, the big ones that plow from fence row to fence row. But as far as . . . I don't . . . I see small farmers using the . . . the herbicides and pesticides and the . . . and the fertilizers just as broadly as the large farmers. I don't . . . know that there's much difference . . . Wendell Berry, you know, is a . . . is a resident of our county. And has spoken very articulately on that. A number of us, many from CFA have great respect for Wendell's views on things. But tragically in this county, people look at Wendell with cynicism or with a sense that, you know, he's out of touch with reality. And that's . . . that's tragic because he's got some good things to say.

KLEE: Sure. Couple . . . there's a couple more questions I have. What do you say to those politicians and so forth who say, well the small markets were eaten up by the big markets, and there's no more small restaurants. There's . . . you know, the change . . . why don't we just let the small family farm go?

KLINGENFUS: Well, I . . . I know that . . . that is the trend, right now, in . Boy, I mean, it's obvious. You . . . you see . . . you see large oil companies getting eaten up by larger oil company, or a large [inaudible] . . . I mean, Teddy Roosevelt would be appalled. We . . . we're seeing . . . we're living in an age of monopolies. But . . . and that's a real concern for me and many people. We see banks, and this is . . . for farmers, this is a real fear, the small, local banks being consumed by the larger banks which deals with them in more . . . more in terms of their economic numbers than in terms of who they are as people.

KLEE: Right.

KLINGENFUS: And . . . and it comes down to the farm as well. Our fear is that . . . when . . . that as the larger . . . if the day ever comes where the Cargills and the Dreyfuses and the General Foods buy up all the small farms, that . . . a great deal of power, a great deal of economic force is gonna be in the hands of very few. And it's gonna be in the hands of people that are not gonna take into consideration the need of the local community, the needs of the individuals, the needs of . . . of those who will be living on their land. And . . . and we're also concerned about what that does to the human spirit to not have that sense of . . . of accomplishment and . . .

KLEE: Um, hmm. I guess that . . . that would . . . that's the issue I kind of wanna finish up on. What . . . I think that there's a general opinion that, you know, the farmer's a special kind of person, a special breed that has a special spirit. What happens in this area, say, to young people? You've got young people in your church, most . . . a lot of people aren't encouraging people to go into the family business, to go into farming. Certainly it's difficult to go into farming and try to pay for a farm. Are they leaving the communities?

KLINGENFUS: Oh I'm . . . I . . . if anyone ever asks me whether they should go into farming or go into something else, I say go into something else for their own sake. I don't think that there's . . . that . . . now, you know, I hold hopes in the future that there will be something. But right now, I don't see that there's much hope for those who wanna stay on the farm. We have two . . . two vocational agriculture classes out at the high school. I see no point to it. What are we training them for? I mean, I . . . I will say that vocational agriculture has turned more to agri-business than . . . as it's direction, and I think . . . I commend them for that. But I think to teach them to farm, it may be a little archaic because it's . . . we . . . there's not gonna be that big a demand for farmers even in this area in the years to come.

KLEE: Yeah.

KLINGENFUS: I . . . I really . . . I think for the sake of the individual, there . . . I think they're gonna need an education. If they're going to be farmers, they're gonna have to be college educated farmers with some realistic ideas of how they can get financed and where . . . where their sources of capital are. They may . . . they may need to face the reality that they're gonna have to work for somebody else on somebody else's farm as a manager. If they wanna be in farming, it may be the only way.

KLEE: The only way, yeah. We . . . we didn't talk about tenants very much. Your . . . you have a concern for tenants.

KLINGENFUS: Yeah, I keep raising this concern wherever I am because I see it as a real problem here. Let me say . . . my . . . my wife's involved in the migrant . . . teaches the migrant students of the county. Migrant, by federal definition, is those that cross county lines within a five-year period of time. And so we have seventy-five children in the county that are classified as migrants. They are what we call tenants. They live on a small farm and . . . but these people are being displaced. The . . . the small farmers that we're concerned about going bankrupt, are also leaving these people without homes and without employment, as meager as it was. Sometimes it was just they provided the house and maybe some food and maybe the milk from the cows and that was it. And they relied on the welfare to take care of the rest of the needs. They got food stamps and maybe some SDC money or something like that. But these people are . . . are displaced. We have a . . . apartment complex here that's been recently built. It's third-party payee kind of an arrangement with the federal government. Many of those people move into there. So these are . . . these are farm people who are now finding themselves in a very, almost urban kind of setting. You know, it's . . .

KLEE: They lost their lifestyle?

KLINGENFUS: Lost their lifestyle. They lost their sense of purpose to life. And I think it's seen in the . . . in the great alcoholism and drug problems among those . . .

KLEE: That's true.

KLINGENFUS: . . . in that particular group.

KLEE: Well, at least the small farmer, smaller family farmer usually . . . kind of middle class values?

KLINGENFUS: Yeah, right . . .

KLEE: . . . and their kids are educated?

KLINGENFUS: Exactly.

KLEE: And some of the tenants didn't have the same level . . .

KLINGENFUS: Did not have education, that's right. And they didn't have those . . . those same values ingrained in them. And . . . and they're . . . they're suffering a great deal from that. Their children, particularly, have suffered.

KLEE: Thank you.

KLINGENFUS: Thank you.

[End Tape #1, Side #2]

[End of Interview]