Oral History Interview with John Garner

Gatewood: This is one of a series of tapes sponsored by the Kentucky Folk History Foundation.

Garner: [talking on phone?]

Gatewood: On the subject of health care in rural . Going to be interviewing Judge John Garner on his father’s country practice in Pulaski, Dr. Tom M. Garner. [pause]

Gatewood: Seems like, seems like you deal with health problems even in this role of judge executive, don’t you?

Garner: Oh, yes. Yes. Yes, you do.

Gatewood: You were talking about some hearsay rumors about bad water or something. I couldn’t help but overhearing. How long have you been in this work?

Garner: I been, I was judge twelve years and I was out eight. And I’m back again. I’m the only Democrat was ever elected to judge’s office in . It’s a strong Republican county.

Gatewood: Right. This whole area down in here, McCreary and Wayne.

Garner: What was you wanting to know about my father?

Gatewood: Yes, I want to, I’d like to go back, if we could, about him going to get his training.

Garner: Well, how about going way back to his birth and then coming on up to it.

Gatewood: Right. Right. I’d like to first of all, just talk about his going, where he got his training.

Garner: Okay. All right. He was born in 1883 on in western . His father was a schoolteacher who had received his teacher certificate by, after he, going through the eighth grade, coming to the county seat, and taking an examination that was given by the state which qualified him as a schoolteacher. My father went to the eight grades in a one-room school. And after finishing the eight grades in the one-room school, he took the examination to become a schoolteacher. So what he would do was teach a year. And at that time, there was a university, there was Eastern, there was a school there called a normal school. Do you know what that is?

Gatewood: Yes. It’s a teachers’ training school.

Garner: So he would go to school one year, teach one year, then he’d go to school. And he’d make his subjects for medical school that he took over there. And he’d come back and teach a year, and then he’d go back a year. Save the money and go back for another year until he got that course. Then, after he got that course, he entered the . And he graduated from the in 1910. They were just beginning to have a four-year medical school and some intern work in 1910. Their intern work was more or less, whoever wanted to could just volunteer and go down to the hospital in and help around the place any way that they could. Just watch the other, watch the doctors, talk to the doctors, and get supervision to the best of what they could get. Then he came to and he settled in Valley Oak, . That’s eight miles from here on 461. He practiced by horseback. In those days, even after I could remember, we lived there until I was six years old. My dad might not ride the same horse home that he rode away in, because he’d ride a horse, and then if his horse got tired, they’d loan him another horse that he could make it with that, with another horse. And at that time, we had, there was a time here where we were having telephones, but at that time, we had a local telephone system where you’d ring and ring and ring and ring, and you’d get somebody. Well, my father couldn’t cover all the country that he had to cover. So in each community, he set up a midwife. They called them granny women. And they’d call on the phone. He’d always try to see these women at least once during their pregnancy. Tell them not to get too fat. Eat good food. Keep their bowels open. Take a little, what he’d recommend was supersaturated solution of Epsom salts to keep their bowels open, so they wouldn’t be constipated. And mainly to eat right and not lift too much. He’d always try to see them once during the pregnancy, if he could. Then he would, when it came time for the baby to come, he would have a midwife to see them. Then if a midwife deemed it necessary, then he’d ride out there. But lots of women, after they had their second child, first child, maybe, or their second child, there wasn’t too big a problem, and the midwife would take care of it. But then he had to ride to several problems. But he would pretty well know some of the problems that were going to come up before they came up. That would give him time to ride, see.

Gatewood: It’s extremely interesting. What year was that, would you say, when he got this network of midwives?

Garner: ’17, ’18. That was a little bit before I was born. I’ll take you into ’17, ’18, in a minute.

Gatewood: 1918, you mean.

Garner: 1917.

Gatewood: 1917. You said−

Garner: And ’18. Yes.

Gatewood: Okay.

Garner: These midwives, the last of them died not too long ago.

Gatewood: I interviewed one in .

Garner: The last one that he had.

Gatewood: Oh, I see. Yes, sir.

Garner: But she started out younger, like, a younger woman. Okay. In 1917 and ’18, they had a flu epidemic, during World War I. My father was slightly crippled. Had a, sort of a back injury. Not a back injury. In later years, he said it was probably had been polio that he had. But he had it as a small child. He took his examination for the army. Due to the civilian population not having any doctors anywhere, hardly, they were all going to the service, they gave him time off, you know, to practice medicine. And due to the flu epidemic, too. He didn’t have to go because the flu was so bad, not only was it killing everybody in the service, it was also killing all the civilians off, too. Very bad. Very bad situation. And he never did have to go in the service, because the war was over before the deferment was up. He had some sort of a deferment to stay out, I guess. One of the, a doctor then, not only did he do this medical, this medical work, he did dentistry. Pulled some teeth for people if they need them pulled. He’d examine their eyes. We can go see that thing where he examined their eyes with, if you want to, after while. Examined the eyes. He’d, back then, 62 years ago, or 60 years ago, I can remember when I was about three, a lot of people couldn’t write. The doctor, he took care of writing some of their letters. Helping them with a lot of things that the doctor did other than just practicing medicine. He’d maybe write a will for somebody, see? Back then, they didn’t have to have a lawyer. Or he might write a mortgage for somebody. Or just a simple IOU for somebody that was buying a cow or something. You know, somebody else had promised to pay for the cow or trade them a shotgun and owe them so many dollars, and they’d get the cow. He took care of those little things, too, for the people around there. And I believe if, you know, at the present time in court there’s a malpractice suit against, I don’t think anybody dared.

Gatewood: Against the doctor.

Garner: No, they wouldn’t have dared. Because one of the neighbors would kill them!

Gatewood: What kind of, what kind of fees did he charge?

Garner: Well, he charged ten dollars for delivering the baby. Five, first. Then, after about 1942, about just before he died, he started charging them ten.

Gatewood: Did he ever do, did he ever do any work with animals? Ever advise people on things that−

Garner: Oh, he’d advise them. He’d tell them what to do. But they thought it was beneath him to work on animals. He just wouldn’t. He’d tell someone what to do. And he loved dogs. He’d work on our dogs. We had lots of hounds. He’d do that, too, yes. But he would not do something for somebody else on animals. He wouldn’t do that. I know a lot of people see him do animal, but they were his dogs. You know. They were−

Gatewood: Well, he had his hands full with people, didn’t he?

Garner: That’s, that’s right. He never did, but now, he’d advise them what to do. He’d say, “I’ll tell you what to do for a dog.” And tell them how to give worm medicine, worm a dog. And those things, see, just like these other things. But he wouldn’t, he didn’t bother with them. I don’t know why, he had a little something against veterinarians, other than his own. Of course he’s probed out a lot of bullets at times. I used to have, I lost them, I had about eight or ten in a little jar that he’d taken out of people at times.

Gatewood: So he would do minor surgery, as well as−

Garner: Right. Yes. One specialty that used to be a common little thing is a bone filling. Have you ever heard of that?

Gatewood: I’ve heard of that, yes.

Garner: And another one was carbuncles would come on the back of the neck.

Gatewood: I’ve felt that. I’ve had that.

Garner: He’d operate then, you know. And he did minor surgery, yes. And he did, later in life, he assisted with some of the other doctors after we moved to town here.

Gatewood: But now this, before, the surgery would be done in the home, right?

Garner: Oh, yes. Usually at our house. We had a room set up especially for that.

Gatewood: When he moved to town here, he did assist and work in some of the clinics, did he?

Garner: Yes, he worked in some of the clinics. Worked with some of the other doctors. And he’d go stand by with Dr. Waddle. I don’t mean Dr. Waddle. No, not Dr. Whale, either. Dr. Norfleet. Dr. Norfleet lost his hand by doing some researching, X-ray. Oh, by the way, here’s something you’ll, the government used to, so you didn’t have any immunization, no health departments and that thing. But he could order the medicine free. The government would send him the medicine free. So then he would ride to the schoolhouse, the one-room schools, and I’ve gone with him. If we had the buggy, I’d go with him. Sometimes he would have the buggy. The first thing he would do, he would have me to roll up my sleeve. Give me a shot of distilled water to show the rest of the kids it didn’t hurt. It did hurt! [laughs] He gave me distilled water. He said, “See? It’s all right, because I gave my little boy a shot.” Then they’d line up. And the medicine came in a little wooden bottle, a little wooden thing. It was an ampoule in a little wooden thing. He’s say, “Now, the smallest girl that don’t cry gets this−” You know that little thing it came in? Not that it really−

Gatewood: Kids want it, though, wouldn’t they?

Garner: Yes. She would. They wanted it. And he’d line them up. A few people would pull their children out. If you didn’t want it, he’d notify the teacher before he was coming. If somebody didn’t want it, for them to notify the teacher, that they wouldn’t give them their typhoid shots. Typhoid’s what it was.

Gatewood: That’s what was needed, too, wasn’t it?

Garner: Oh, yes.

Gatewood: This was a bad area for typhoid, isn’t it?

Garner: Yes, it was. Yes, yes.

Gatewood: I’ve heard somebody say over around community was particularly bad.

Garner: Yes, typhoid was bad.

Gatewood: What is it? Why is it so bad here? Is it the drainage or something?

Garner: I don’t know. It’s caused by water. And then you had, you’d have typhoid carriers, too. People who carried it who never had typhoid. And of course they can urinate in a stream, or their stools, feces, will show because…

Gatewood: Well, that’s very interesting that your father was in preventive medicine that way before there was any health instructions. He got the serum free from the government somewhere?

Garner: Yeah, okay, I don’t know when we first started having the United States Health Department. We had a United States Health Department, but we didn’t have these county. And he’d order it. And also, he got smallpox, smallpox. Of course, he gave people smallpox, which I mentioned, too. My father never was interested in accumulating a lot of money. I have property that I inherited it all from my mother, my grandmother on my mother’s side. My dad died at a very young age by working so hard. He never failed to make a call. If he could make a call, he made it. And his greatest sport was foxhunting though.

Gatewood: The old way? The traditional way? Sitting around, listening?

Garner: Yes. Yes.

Gatewood: Oh, is that right?

Garner: That was his…and playing checker. Had a back office after we moved to town here. Where older men sit back there and play checkers. I remember when sulfur drugs first came out. Do you know that ain’t been out too long?

Gatewood: What’s that? I didn’t catch.

Garner: . Sulphuramide. Sulphizole. They started coming out before 1938, ’39, ’40, somewhere along there. So you didn’t have a lot of drugs back then, either. All right. What else would you like to know?

Gatewood: In that regard, you seem to have such a real good relationship with the folk vets and the midwifery. But how did he relate to the herb and root type doctors? Or were they very prevalent when he started practice?

Garner: Which ones are you talking about?

Gatewood: I’m speaking about doctors who would use herbs and roots as part of their medicine.

[tape is very distorted in this part]

Garner: Oh, well, see, he didn’t have any problem with them. Well, for instance, one time we had an Indian doctor here in town. Some of them bring charges against him for what he was selling. Well, my dad wouldn’t enter into it. Fellow by the name of Dr. Rabbit Foot. He, uh, you see, dad, in his back office he had – and I’m a laboratory technician, learned a lot of from dad then I went to school too – but he run a test on Dr. Rabbit Foot’s medicine. He came out with his answer. I think we put him on a stand in court with this. He said that there was nothing in it. There was a laxative in it and a good laxative wouldn’t hurt nobody. [laughter]

Gatewood: That’s great.

Garner: And he said that it was better than taking, because Dr. Rabbit Foot had boiled this water, at that point. Showed this medicine that boiled. And see, it was just a method, but people wouldn’t take it. It’s psychological fact but as far as anything else, it didn’t hurt you. If you thought it was going to help you, it would help you…Oh, my father always felt like a lot of those remedies that these old ladies used, that had, especially poultices that had drawing effects, like onion poultices on boils. And he seen nothing wrong with those. He said that there wasn’t anything wrong with them. Only one thing that he really would fuss about was people who would stop bleeding by putting soot out of the stove into the, uh, – someone get a cut on their face or something and they get a handful of soot to stop the bleeding

Gatewood: Or spiderwebs.

Garner: Yeah. Now he objected to that. He said that…and he would really get after some mother that had put it on some awful pretty little girl and he would work for hours trying to clean it up. And didn’t have…all he had was water. He didn’t have other things to do it with. And she couldn’t stand alcohol of course and he just had to do it with clear water. Now here’s one that you will really get a kick out of, if you’ve never heard of it. For measles – sheep shit tea.

Gatewood: I’ve heard of that.

Garner: You’ve heard of that.

Gatewood: I’ve heard of it.

Garner: Okay. Well let me tell you what my father thought about sheep shit tea. They called and said, “Now Doc, will that do any good?” Doc would say “I don’t recommend it, but if you want to use it, you go ahead and use it.” But he said, “If you’re going to use it then I want to tell you how to use it.” He said, “You boil it. And you boil it strong. And you let it boil and boil and boil.” He said, “Then you strain it. Be sure you strain and get all the…everything out of it.” He says, “Then you put it back on the stove and reboil, reboil again. Then he says, you let the patient drink it just as hot as he can bear it.” One day I said, “Now, daddy, you know that stuff don’t do no good.” He says, “No, but how else you going to get them to drink hot water.” Hot water brought it out. The heat brought it out – not the, nothing in that. So he says, “Why, tell them that it won’t do it – when they are going to get some help from it? But you couldn’t tell them to go home and boil some water and drink it just as hot as they can stand it.” Said, “Ain’t going to do no good.” So that was…and a lot of these things that he, my father thought that maybe as long as it didn’t hurt – now for instance, the spiders, webs and that sort of thing – he really objected to, but now none of these poulstices that you put on.

Gatewood: And the teas and things you could drink?

Garner: The teas? He said it was the heat…it wouldn’t have bothered you…

Gatewood: How do account for him being so wise in terms of the culture that was here?

Garner: Well, he grew up in the culture here. Then he studied all the time too. See the state used to put out a medical journal. They’d put out…the state had a medical journal. He read the new things that was coming out. He read all the pamphlets that was put out by the pharmaceutical houses. And he was one of the first people to diagnose tularemia in this county.

Gatewood: Now what is that?

Garner: It’s caused from a rabbit. The blood of a rabbit. Called tularemia. It’s a serious, serious disease. I don’t know whether he had a knack for it on making diagnoses – a lot of doctors looked to him for diagnoses.

Gatewood: I’ve heard that.

Garner: They looked to him. I mean he could, appendix; he could get one in a hurry when he could find – of course he didn’t do the surgery – but he recommended them right on to the – and I’ve been around the office and they go to the hospital and they’d call in and say, “Well, Doc, you’re right again.” ? His success with mothers and the babies was, what he claimed was a success…rushed the baby coming, that he would wait and that nature would take its course and a few times he would have to use other things but nature would take its course and you may have to wait three or four hours – be a little more pain on the mother but be a more healthy baby more than likely. And that was one of his successes that he said was a success with mothers.

[too distorted, can’t understand anything]