[Begin Interview]
Unknown: You first name is Dave Rash.
Unknown: Who’s talking, is that Mr.
Unknown: Roy Rash.
Roy Rash: Roy Rash.
Interviewer: Still on. This is June 24th, and we’re in Morton’s Gap.
Rash: You want me to tell you my experience when I start in the coal mine?
Interviewer: Yes. That would be a fine place to start.
Rash: I started in 1912 at Nortonville. I was thirteen years old. And went in as
a, they used to call it a (?) loading coal. A man would be responsible for you and (?) you in the mines. And you’d get a (?) a half. You’d get two car[s], you’d get a car every time he did. He loaded most of the coal, of course. And he’d get four more cars. If he got eight cars there, well he’d get four more cars than they would have if they didn’t have me with him.Interviewer: So, you were sort of an apprentice. Just sort of learning.
Other Interviewer: You were actually loading coal?
Rash: Pardon?
Interviewer: You were loading coal?
Rash: Loading coal, yes. With a shovel.
Interviewer: Tell us about the mine at that time. What are your memories of it?
Rash: Well, it was shaft mine, number one mine in Nortonville. And the shaft was
212 feet deep. At that time, we worked ten hours. Went in, worked five or six in the morning till five at night. And after I was there a few days, well the boss put me to cupping on what’s called mule cars, where the mules pull the coals a certain point, then a motor picks it up and carries it to the bottom to put it on the outside.Interviewer: What, how many people were working the mine?
Rash: I figure at that time about 350 men working there.
Interviewer: Were there a lot of young fellows starting around thirteen?
Rash: Well, not too many. Just some of the (young mutts?) that didn’t have much
way of getting by where their parents put them to work pretty quickly. We went on our own.Interviewer: Tell us about, if you can remember, what you did when you went down
the shaft, you went to (?) your room. You worked in a room, didn’t you?Rash: Yeah.
Interviewer: And how many people were working there, and how you worked in
relation to them. You told us some about that already.Rash: Well, it depends on how far back they are. When you go down the shaft,
they went two or three different ways from the shaft. You went to a certain (room?), and that’s where your job was. And maybe it would be fifty men on that one particular (run?). And they went, if they had to have coal for (?), well usually they had a mule that took some cart, had men loading cars and pull them to where they (?) the work. And then the (?) Nortonville, they didn’t have a (?) machine. They had a machine that they, electric machine. But it pushed around on a truck, on a car. And it only, when they unload it, it chop itself up and they’d have to pull it out and (slow it over with ??). Make it cut the next cut into the coal. And the shot was a black powder used to dummies, what you call dummies, made up of (? clay?) and you drill the hole and tape this powder into the (?) clay into the coal, and shoot it with a squib, what you call a squib. The squib was a needle, a brass needle. And with a brass, copper head on it. And usually, they had a boy he had helped make up the dummies. They put him in this hole and put a needle in there to make a trench. And then they’d tap that bar in that (?) and the squib would go in. And the squib was a little contraption, oh, six or eight inches long. And when you light it, you had to get going pretty quick, for they was pretty fast on the trigger. And we’d get out of the way, and– [pause]Interviewer: Okay, this is reel number three. We’re still in Morton’s Gap. And
we’re going to hear about Old Fox.Unknown: Tell him about Old Fox.
Rash: Oh, he just a (bank?) mule, like any other. He just had plenty of sense.
Unknown: (?) wasn’t he?
Rash: Yeah, he was. I rode him four years.
Interviewer: How long would you generally get, life out of a mule in the mine?
Rash: I don’t know. They had one down there, Old Mert, he was thirty-five years old.
Unknown: Some of them, they got killed (?) seen I killed three or four different
ones. Cut their legs off or jab them in the rib or something that would kill them.Unknown: If they kill the mule, (?) not only if they kill the man (?) nothing,
see? That’s the way it was back then.Unknown: Killed the man and the mule.
Unknown: Yeah, that’s right.
Unknown: The man killed and the mule, too, I’ll tell you that. (?)
Unknown: Then if you got, they come and actually buried you, why, you was
fortunate. You didn’t get no compensation.Unknown: That’s right. I tore that finger there, eighty dollars.
Unknown: (?) cut off. I was cut by a (?) and a mortar. And I got it caught in my
(?) Actually, these boys, they went in the mines, I was running the motor. That’s why I say I run (them over?), I (?) after twelve years. And they know more about the driving and (?) coal than I do after that. We’ve got the eight hours a day for that time. And if the company want us to work eight hours, a lot of times they’d say, “Well, boys, we got to have another trip of coal before we run back.” And I’ve left the outside at quitting time, go to the inside, get a trip of coal. Of course, when I did that, why the men that was in there, they couldn’t get out until I got out and pulled the power for the motor. Me and my buddy, we’d make the trip as quick as we could and get out and pull the power to where the men and the mules could get out.Unknown: Yeah, I drove mules about twenty years. (?) mules, you know. Colors and
all. A mule’s got plenty of sense if you’ll give him a chance. I was coming up empty with Fox mule and fell on him and knocked him down. And I cut him off. And I went back side the car, and went down the middle (?) and I thought he was under that fall, see? And that sucker was able to break through. [laughs] Oh, I was tickled to death. He took care of himself. And if I had left him hooked to that car, it would take twelve days to dig that out. Me and Mr. (?) talking about that the other day now.Interviewer: Once you got them trained, they pretty well knew where to go and everything.
Unknown: Yeah.
Unknown: They’d get out of the way.
Unknown: Yeah, no lines on them.
Unknown: Getting out of the way (?)
Interviewer: How would you get, when you were driving mules, how were you paid?
Unknown: I got three dollars at number eleven. I drove three mules up there
outside, pulling fourteen cars to the tip. Got three dollars a day for that. When I drove inside, same price, three dollars.Interviewer: Where did you live then? Did you live in coal camp?
Unknown: No, I lived out here on the farm. (?) coal camp right through here. And
they had one here for the St. Bernard Coal Company. They lived up here around the mine, but right here in town, there wasn’t any. We lived, just (?) where we wanted to around here.Unknown: (?) fourteen cars and (?) them three mules, they were big mules. I
broke two to (?) And they were (?)Interviewer: People around here raised them.
Unknown: Yeah, they raised, (?) coal down on the (?). The (loads?) pull the
empties up.Interviewer: Did you do farming as well as (?)
Unknown: I farmed all the time I worked in the mine. Had to, to make a living.
[laughs] You couldn’t make no living in the mine. Not in one or two days a week. Sometimes, one day a month.Interviewer: So, if you had a farm, you’d have more independence.
Unknown: I didn’t own a farm. I had it rented.
Interviewer: You must have put in some long hours, to work in the mines and come
out and do your farming, too.Unknown: (?) summertime didn’t work. So, you can imagine just farming two days a week.
Interviewer: Why didn’t they mine all the time?
Unknown: Didn’t have any sale for the coal, I suppose. At that time, there
wasn’t any, you could buy that up yonder on the side of the hill for a dollar a ton. (?) coal. They had a screen, you know. They screened, you’d get a dollar a ton.Interviewer: In them days, they used coal mostly for heat purposes. And then in
the summertime, there wasn’t any market until (?) the mine. And then in the wintertime, when everybody using coal to heat with, why they run six days a week. Or five and six.Interviewer: In the summer, you got (?)
Unknown: You’re on your own. You just had to make it the best way you could.
Unknown: If you (wasn’t a?) farmer, you had to hustle any way you could. Pick
blackberries, if necessary. If everybody want two or three gallon[s] of blackberries, well you’d go ahead and pick them.Unknown: (?) walk over hill that way, cause what was it paying then, about eight dollars?
Unknown: I just sitting here thinking that was $8.75 that (?)
Unknown: (?) union then, it was paying eight dollars.
Unknown: That was in–
Unknown: (World War Two?), I believe.
Unknown: Ain’t [Isn’t] that about right, (Jay?) whenever they run that–
Unknown: (?) had a pump on the outside. I pumped (over?)
Unknown: (?) is that how we were in west Kentucky.
Unknown: (?) Roy
Unknown: Yeah, I was an electrician in the mines (?)
Interviewer: Was there a big increase and a big improvement when the mines went union?
Unknown: Yes.
Unknown: Yes, quite a lot.
Interviewer: Tell us about it.
Unknown: That was in ’23. I went to (?) at [in] 1920. (?) he sent me down there.
I was sixteen years old. But I worked up there two years before I went to (?) mine..
Unknown: ’23 and ’24 is when they had the big strike, and they just stopped the
union for a while.Unknown: I was single. I got four dollars a week aid. I’d catch a (?), and me
and Wallace Clement, we’d each (?) and get back next week in time to get another four dollars and take off. [laughs] We didn’t go nowhere, go up to (?) and sleep in a boxcar.Interviewer: What were some of the greatest improvements when you went union?
Tell me about that.Unknown: Well, (?) Their improvement was that if they forced you to work over
eight hours, well we forced them to pay us for that time. And before then, if they wanted you to work an extra hour every day, well, you didn’t get any pay for it. I have worked for the mines at five o’clock in the morning, and work on motors where they so something, break something, and then at night, work till (?) seven and get on my regular job. And I’d (?) went day after day, never got any pay for that. The union come around, why, when we did that, we got paid for every hour we worked.Unknown: Everything was better.
Unknown: Everything generally was better. They had a little better safety rules.
And they made better conditions for the air and for the people that was working. Just 100 percent better than non-union.Unknown: I believe that’s not for (every?) mines up there where I (?) I think it
paid a dollar and a half a day(?) what they told me. Of course, I didn’t work in it.Unknown: I didn’t work in it, but I knew men that did work there. Dollar and a
half a day is what they got for eight, nine, ten hours, too.Interviewer: When was this?
Unknown: That was when they were opening up, what are they talking about, number
eleven, that’s in the ‘40s. And that kind of thing just wasn’t (?).Interviewer: That was non-union?
Unknown: Yes. After they broke the union in ’23, ’24.
Unknown: 1923, ’42 when the union come back? No. Yeah, ’42, when it come back,
why you just done the best you could in any way to make a living. And you were lucky if you had a job. But if you had a job, why, you got what they told you. You didn’t have, you couldn’t say, “I can’t do it, I ain’t [am not] going to do it.” You went ahead and did what they tell you to do, regardless of whether you liked it or whether you didn’t like it.Unknown: You had to do what they (?) in, just like, I don’t know, I ain’t [have]
never seen nothing like it.Interviewer: How did the unions finally get the mines organized? How did you
finally get a contract? Finally get the union in there.Unknown: I don’t know how (?), do you? [laughter]
Unknown: I don’t know whether I’m supposed to tell all that or not.
Unknown: I’ll tell you the truth about it, President Roosevelt was a big shot in (?)
Unknown: He’s the man who opened the gate.
Unknown: Yeah, he opened the gate and he give us more power. And he give us the
rights to strike and fight for our rights. And that’s when we got it.Unknown: NRA
Interviewer: Well, section 7:8 gave you the right to–
Unknown: Up until then, they had deputy sheriffs working at all these mines. The
company paid them, and the county sheriff would deputize them. Well brother, if you didn’t (?), you found yourself over there (?) in a jail. And you didn’t get out very easy. Times was rough. And (?) the union. Because they couldn’t jump up, after we got the union, they couldn’t jump up and fire you, or lock you up without a cause. They could still fire you if you had done something you shouldn’t. But they had to prove it. They didn’t take their word. We had a committee. And they all had a hearing on this. And you had to be guilty of something if they fired you. And that’s the way it worked. That’s the difference between scabbing and having a union.Unknown: I never was fired in my life. I just quit and walked off. And I stayed
till they said I had to (?) I drove that [those] mules twenty years. I stayed (?) I go somewhere else. (?) Kentucky. I was driving or riding a motor or something. I wouldn’t raise no racket, see? I didn’t have no arguments with them. I just didn’t go back. Stayed in good standing, all of them. [laughs]Unknown: By that time, you need a (?), didn’t you?
Unknown: That’s right. You raised any (sand?) you couldn’t go back. (?)
Unknown: If you raised a racket, you were put on the blacklist. You couldn’t get
a job in the county. And sometimes you’d have to leave and go to a factory or go to another trade or something.Unknown: One time I walked off and stayed four years. And (Mr. Hart?) passed,
going down to the office. I went down there. I said, “Mr. (Hart?), I’d like to go back to work.” He said, “I thought you was down there all the time. Go tonight.” And I said, “Well, (?) he’s off, too. The guy driving mules, too.” He said, “Tell him to go tonight.” And this (?) made me load one night and drive one night, you know, for a long time. He was punishing me, you know. But he wasn’t punishing me. I carried my old mule in, I made more money when I drove myself than I did when I did when I (?)Interviewer: You had your own mule?
Unknown: I carried it in myself.
Interviewer: Tell us about that. I thought all the mules were owned by the company.
Unknown: Oh, no. They paid you; the loaders paid you for every seventh car.
Every seventh car, you got every seventh car. I had eighteen men, see. (?) [static] slow down some, then. If I had the (?) make more money.Interviewer: You provided your own mule.
Unknown: I carried it in myself.
Interviewer: (?) good idea of (?)
Unknown: In other words, the company owned the mule. He went (?) [static
obscuring words] and he was getting every seventh car, you see.Unknown: I had to (pull my own?) (?) make about twelve (?)
Interviewer: I’m still a little confused. What’s the other way of doing it?
Unknown: (?) run back and pull the coal for the men. The company wouldn’t pay
their drivers to go back and pull the coal. So, the men had to pay the drivers. That’s when they paid them by loading the car, every, if they had seven men, each man loaded him a car for–Interviewer: Okay.
Unknown: That was the idea of the whole thing.
Unknown: I had eighteen men. I got every seventh car. You’d get keep your turn,
you wouldn’t get the car, they wouldn’t tell you.Unknown: The way I did it–
Unknown: Well, this is mine (?)
Unknown: I did a lot of that kind of work, and I had six loaders. And I checked
every seventh car. And it worked out, whoever, which one (?) loaded me one he didn’t put a check on it, see. And then when I got there to pull it, I’d put my check on it. The loaders was paying me.Unknown: There ain’t [is] nothing they can do to me because I ain’t [do not] got
[have anything] nothing (?)Interviewer: What do you mean, superstitious?
Unknown: (?)
Unknown: They think the (?), a lot of them are old, that these big operators are
actually working against them. And they feel that if they say anything, that they’ll let it be used somewhere up and down the line.Unknown: (?) that man (?) the same car, we were outlaw men, you know. Men were
too (?), they kind of organize or something like that. Why they fired him, then he was blackballed. He didn’t get a job anywhere around coal mines. They’d send names from one mine to another. I (?) blackballed, there’s quite a few of us around here at that time.Interviewer: Was there much bringing in scabs? Bringing in–
Unknown: Yeah, 1934, ’35, ’35, I guess it was, ’32 and ’34, they brought in men
from all over the country in these big panel trucks. And they had two men riding with machine guns. To protect the men, keep the union men off of them. Well, that’s what they claimed. And then when they got to the mines, why, well, they formed around in places where they’re supposed to go. The men, they drove up and down the road, and that union man (?) or take a shot at them or anything it’s necessary to do. And one time, of course they forced all of us that had been out of all this these years, all the time fought for the organization, we (?) to work. We had to go back. I went back down there, there was sixty-three ex-convicts working in the mines.Unknown: (My daddy, same thing?)
Unknown: Yeah, there were sixty-three ex-convicts that they’d opened the gates
and (?) I reckon turned them all out, and they went to (?)Interviewer: How about, were there a number of blacks brought in to work?
Unknown: Yeah, that was (?). The blacks were brought in in the ‘20s. About ’28, ’29.
Unknown: (?) actually has nothing to do with that.
Interviewer: Do you remember, you probably remember that. From the South, the
blacks coming up. Do you remember some things about that?Unknown: They didn’t (?) the blacks. They didn’t put them up there. They knew
blacks went to (white city???)Unknown: (?) down there
Unknown: Yeah. They didn’t allow them down there.
Unknown: (?) in 1929, I hired the first bunch of black in the south hill that
went in there. But back in the old days, in St. Bernard, they had a man, had a colored black man that went down to Alabama and Tennessee and brought them up here by the carload. Put them in the mine.Unknown: (?) carload (?)
Unknown: Yeah. They put them in the mine and work them for nothing. And they
didn’t expect to ever get any money, but they give them a place to eat and sleep. And the furniture and stuff they had to have out of the company store. And then if they had to have money, why they’d go out and buy something or get an old shotgun or something, turn around and (?) somebody they had the money in the bank, so they’d have a little money. That’s the way it worked up until, might say up until the ‘40s. (?)Unknown: I reckon it was ’46 when (?) over here, wasn’t it ’45?
Unknown: Yes. ’45. Well, I’d go (?) and trade (?) since 1940. But I was working
down in (?),Unknown: (?)
Unknown: Yeah, when the (organizer?) saw it, it was in about ’44.
Unknown: 1950 whenever (?)
Unknown: Yeah.
Interviewer: Are there any things (?)
Unknown: Wasn’t no funny stories about that back then. That was all work.
[laughter] Not no stories.Unknown: Well, there’s one that they used to tell about a woman in Nortonville
who (?) there and she asked somebody (?) “Is this a coal mining camp?” Said, “Yes.” She said, “What’s that coming down the road?” He said, “That’s a miner.” And he had a bale of straw on his back. She said, “What’s that on his back?” He said, “Oh, that’s the straw.” “Do miners eat straw?” [laughter] They told her that. I don’t know.Unknown: Sometimes I could tell my kids about the way times was. Of course,
after they come along, things are getting pretty good. They just don’t believe it. They think the old man’s crazy or lying or something.Unknown: Yeah, we had a hard time making a living. I worked through the summer;
I worked around here for these farmers. Fifty cents a day. Take that and (?)Unknown: Had to get it.
Unknown: Yeah. And it happened I was a pretty good hand on the farm, cause I was
raised on one. I’m going on seventeen years old. I didn’t have no trouble getting a job with some of them around here. It didn’t pay nothing.Unknown: I made most of my living by doing carpenter work and painting and
repair work. In fact, when I wasn’t working in the mines, I always doing something else around repair work or painting or carpentry, or just anything that come up. And I guess I got by better than some of the men did, because some of them didn’t know how to do anything. And I had learned how to do everything. So that was the difference.Interviewer: Did the local people work on building coal camps?
Unknown: No. I don’t reckon, they might have worked at it, but if they did, they
got paid for it, I suppose, the way they paid them. They built these coal camps. (?) built theirs in about 1918. [pause] and they had a bunch of carpenters that they paid to build them.Interviewer: Were they local people, the carpenters?
Unknown: Yeah, mostly local people.
Interviewer: How were the homes in the coal camp?
Unknown: Well, I guess first and all, that the (?) was the best camp there was
in the state for the whole white man running (?) confused. Most everybody was living in the same kind of a house, and everybody was satisfied with them, I suppose.Interviewer: I guess we got another (?)
[End Side A. Begin Side B.]
Unknown: They built these coal camps. (?) built theirs in about 1918.
Unknown: The way I understand it was that–
Unknown: And they had a bunch of carpenters that they paid to build them.
Unknown: Were they local people, the carpenters?
Unknown: Yes, most local people.
Interviewer: How were the homes in the coal camp?
Unknown: Well, I guess, (?) that (White City?) was the best camp there was in
the state. The whole, white men, wasn’t any colored, wasn’t any confusion. Everybody was living in the same kind of a house, and everybody was satisfied with them, I suppose.[End Session]
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