Oral History Interview with Carl Short & Thelma Short

[Begin Interview]

Interviewer: The fifth. And this is reel five. You were telling us about the mining courses that you taught.

C. Short: We taught up at the school, one of the schools up here. And well, and, and also the colored school. And we had as many as sixty taking those class-, courses. And I had, a little bit later on, Mr. Hooper Love and Mr. Mark Eastin, they was president and vice president of the company. They came up to see how I was getting along with the course. So, they, they registered in and took the course, too. They, they said they’d like to know more about what was going on in the mines themselves, and Mr. Love, they took the course.

Interviewer: And how did you get your education.

C. Short: Well, I, I, I studied and finished three courses in international correspondence courses in different, different things. In, and I’ve always [ ], in geology, in geology. And course I had to have school, some school and supervision from University of Kentucky. But it was all done through paperwork. They didn’t ever come down here, they’d say they’d be here, and I’d register about sixty per course. And I’d, I’d show up, and no one would show up from University of Kentucky. Call me, said they’re busy somewhere else. And evidently, they thought I was getting along very well, because they never did have to come. And I taught six years, and, and the course is all into mining. And incorporated in there safety and mine ventilation, different phases of mine--mine ventilation. And different phases.

Interviewer: Now the people you were teaching–

C. Short: They were [ ]–

Interviewer: –were basically supervisors–

C. Short: In other words, they were superintendents and, and foremen, and what we call section foremen. [ ] calls it unit foremen now. And they came from, I think some came from over at the, over at the Central City and over there. Some fellows, they’d come in from wherever they worked, they’d come in. And we did get one place right over on top of the store here was a large area back in there, it housed about sixty, and I, I had a class back there. And I’ve had those classes from, I’d say from six to nine, and they’d go five days a week. And then I’d also work the next day. Of course, I never did miss any work. So, you can see how it’s pretty well entertained there, too. [laughter]

Other Interviewer: What were the years you were teaching mining?

C. Short: Thelma, can you remember any years I taught the mining now? You’ll remember some of them. It was up to, it must have been ’29 to ’30, somewhere in there.

T. Short: ‘40

C. Short: In the ‘30s.

T. Short: ‘40s. I helped him give some of these questions out when he was taking the courses. That’s what I can remember. Then after we married, he taught some.

C. Short: ’28 to ’30, or somewhere in there.

Interviewer: When did you get married?

T. Short: In ’40.

Interviewer: 1940. Did the company require these men to take these courses? Or did they give them some kind of incentive to do it? Or did they just come in on their own?

C. Short: They came on their own, but course at the end of the class, they’d probably, we’d, we’d probably do something for them. I’ve forgotten how just, exactly way we... But as far as compensation, they didn’t ask for any compensation at all. They was all interested enough to, to come and study. Seemed like they was wanting to study.

T. Short: Is that where you took them to Frankfort, and they took the examinations to get their papers?

C. Short: Yeah.

T. Short: I thought it was. After they studied this, they went to Frankfort and took this examination. And got their papers to be foramens or what it was they were trying to do.

C. Short: I’d have to look. There’s so many different things I taught at that time; I’d have to look some of that up. That’s the first time I thought of that in quite a long time.

Interviewer: But if you wanted to be promoted, you would need foreman papers and that sort of thing?

C. Short: Yeah, you’d have to have mine foreman papers. I’m glad you brought that up now. In other words, you’d have to go to Lexington and take the examination for mine foreman, superintendent. Same thing right now, you have to take, to be a mine foreman or superintendent, you’d have to, and that was one incentive that they, they had. And I would, in other words, I’d supervise the group that’s going up there. In other words, when they went up there, we’d all go together. I’d make arrangements for the hotel, and they’d furnish the hotels and the time that they... and paper for everything, expenses up there and back. And, yeah, I hadn’t thought of that in a long time. That’s, and we’d go up there as much as maybe three, three or four times a year. When they and take a group. And that’s where they trained, trained a lot of the men. And, and course, they had to have those papers before they could, and that would give them a chance to advance in the mines. Because a section foreman, he’d almost have to have a, a, a class. He’d have to have a certificate sometime to be a section foreman. Because safety and all was involved.

Interviewer: How would, where did most, did most of the men start out just as miners, and then work their way up to become foremen?

C. Short: Well, I’d say that practically the, the majority of them did.

Interviewer: What sort of education did they have before they started studying with you?

C. Short: Oh, well, they’d, they’s [they are]---most of them would have up to high school or, or common school, common school education. Nearly all of them.

Interviewer: How much chance was there for advancement? You say there might have been two hundred men in the mine. Would there be, how many foremen would they have? And, and section foremen and supervisors and stuff?

C. Short: Well, as they started bringing mechanic-, bringing machinery in, I guess this, this state, I mean, down here at Earlington, this Heckley mine, I believe, was, was noted for having the first mining equipment, you know, mechanical equipment in there. See used to, you’d think that way back [ ] this, this, all they’d have to do is shoot it down, load it up on a car and bring it on out. But they, they used mechanical equipment. Started to have to have cutting machines. And they had cutting machines and drills. And course they’d have to know something about those drills, or, and, and know something about the equipment before they could go in. And, and course they was working. And they’d ask questions if you wanted knowing about something. And of course, I, I would go in and go through the mines, making inspections. I made inspections for all the mines, too, [ ] long in there.

Interviewer: This, the particular mines here before Island Creek brought, bought them, what, did-, who were they started by?

C. Short: Well, I’d say the St. Bernard Coal Company, I believe, is the first one that, that started. They tell me, it was a company, small company, before then. That they probably bought them out. But the St. Bernard Coal Company was the one started it, started the mine. And, and course they consolidate with the Sturgis Group, when the Sturgis, west Kentucky came from Sturgis, they bought out the St. Bernard Coal Company in 20-, ’24. I don’t recall, whether it be on the building or somewhere, when, when the St. Bernard. I don’t...

Interviewer: What, were the owners here in Kentucky? Or were they from the east? Or England?

C. Short: I, I believe it, I believe it’s really, they came from here. The Atkinsons came here and settled, I believe, that they came from the east. George Atkinson.

Interviewer: Weren’t they Quakers?

C. Short: I, I don’t know. I don’t know.

T. Short: Was that in that history? I thought it was.

Interviewer: The, sounds as if your mines here, you were always very concerned with, with safety, and everything was very well run here, as opposed to some parts of the country where it wasn’t as well run. So, the owners were very concerned with running everything very properly.

C. Short: They, they tell me that, that they started to work some coal up here south, and evidently was, didn’t have the right kind of roof, and they went back, and they got a man or two killed with fall in roof. And they closed the mine down. They said if they couldn’t work any better than that, they wouldn’t operate, in other words. Then, we started then, later, where that, one section of old Fox Run Mine, I have no idea when it was open, but I [ ], but they had a section, and I look on the map, and I said, here’s a body of coal back here, and you never have gotten that. Why haven’t you gotten it. Said, “That’s a bad roof back there.” And we closed down. Wouldn’t even work. Too bad to work. So later on, when we got started roof bolting, I don’t know whether you’re acquainted with roof bolting or not, started roof bolting. We managed to get in. I said, we got this coal down, so we started roof bolting and, and recovered all that coal back in there, in that section. And, and worked there. I don’t know how many acres was back by using roof bolts. And, and course, there was roof jacks and all. And that made it safe.

Interviewer: What, did those mines work all the time? Or were they just worked periodically? Did, did, did you, what, what was the demand for the coal? How was the coal used to start with?

C. Short: Well, well, there was evidently a good demand for coal. I didn’t check on, on that. However, I did work one, one week or, no--a month, in, in a, where they sell, sell the coal down there at the coke, but there’s evidently a, a good enough demand that they had to, had to find out how many cars they could get, railroad cars to get each day before they’d run. Course, they’d run so much coal, I mean, that much coal to run. And, and I, I recall that during the summer, it would be a little bit slack. Maybe they wouldn’t run over three or four days a week, two or three days a week, sometimes.

Interviewer: How would it be slack over the summer?

C. Short: Well, that just, in the winter, see, everybody used coal. They, they used to nearly have, and they’s [they] almost supply around through here, supply here without even ship, course, they shipped a lot by rail, always did. Shipped a lot by rail. I couldn’t tell you how many that, the tons–

Interviewer: The main market was the domestic, was it, rather than–

C. Short: Well, it, it went both north, north, and south from here. And I couldn’t understand until later on, I guess it prepared, we, one thing though, they prepared coal so well. In other words, if the coal wasn’t very good on it, they’d have on the tipple, they’d have, have maybe gob pickers, they’d call them, up there on the table for the coal. Rosee (??) something, lump of coal coming by on a shaker, shaking the coal in different sizes. See sizing it and shaking it on a screen. Well, they’d have coal pickers up there and he’d pick it and throw it off and that would go in the gob pile, and then they’d haul it all off. And they built roads and all of that. That’s what they built the roads. And that’s the reason it wasn’t too hard to put the blacktop streets in here because they had the base already put there see. And later on, when they put blacktop, hard top streets in here, but they’d had the, and I, I, I’d say that people that came in here were interested in safety of the men, and also in the production of the coal at heart. And they made a study of it. And they know where the, and, and a lot of people would evidently like to have the coal for here. However, since it’s eastern Kentucky and some other sections of the country have coal seams that doesn’t collect that much sulfur in it, see. And, and they, they, a little bit easy sell. However, when they prepare this coal now, it’s, it’s, it’s about as good as any. They kind of used that for a long time. If this coal wasn’t classified as good as some of the coal in other parts of the country. But by these different faults laying in here, this coal, some section of coal down here, it has enough oil and all in it, it, it’s---makes a good coal. Because I know, I know one place, in, in, where we hit a fault one place, that the fellow was getting enough oil coming down from a fault, had can sitting around there, and enough dripping down from the roof, that he was oiling his machinery with that. I believe that fellow is still living. That’s Young up yonder. I believe, I happen to think of him, he told me not long ago that he used to, he used to oil his equipment with oil that he got off the roof down at, I believe, North Diamond or one of the mines where we’d hit a vertical fault there and was run down between.

Interviewer: Was he a, a, was Mr. Young a miner or...

C. Short: Yeah, he was a miner.

Interviewer: Let’s see.

[pause in recording]

Interviewer: ...for all the workers?

C. Short: Yes, they, they, they had ample housing. Of course, they, they built houses and brought them in. They had their own carpenters who built the houses. And they tell me, these shotgun houses, they, now you can drive through the, some of the sections that had them, and they’ve added on about two, two or three rooms on one side. And they, it makes a nice-looking homes. You can, you can even drive round and see some of the nice homes they’ve made out of some of these shotgun houses. And, and they said they was well built houses. They was well built. Said really built as good as any house they build today.

Interviewer: Okay. I got to turn my tape over. We had shotgun houses in an area of Louisville that we have our studio in. And–

[End Side A. Begin Side B.]

Interviewer: For single miners, did they have boarding houses? Or was everything just for families? Were there boarding houses?

C. Short: Oh, yes.

T. Short: [ ] boarding houses [ ]

C. Short: Yeah, we had, had boarding–

Interviewer: The country, from the east or the south or where did they get most of the miners?

C. Short: It seemed to me like they went south. They went south. I just don’t recall [ ] and they had a lot of group[s], colored from the South they brought in from there, too. But I don’t, hadn’t thought in the same way about that.

Interviewer: Was there a different store for blacks than the regular store? Or everybody used the same company store?

C. Short: They all used the same company store. And that’s why they were educated right along with the whites. And, and we’ve always gotten along.

Interviewer: They didn’t have segregation like they did in other [ ] places.

C. Short: No, no, as far as that’s concerned. We’ve always gotten along. I have just a good friend, one, one race [ ] the other right now. And we never have had the least bit of friction whatsoever.

Interviewer: The, in the, did they have to lay a lot of people off when you went mechanized? Or did it just natural–

C. Short: Well, it, it, it started kind of melting away. I don’t know just what happened there. But of course, it’s a lot of them laid off course I, I, as far as that concerned, they had to melt away, I’d say. Now, now, when they, it melted away with the railroads, the railroad. See, it’s this is the railroad center here. And, and see, one of the centers L & N , see, right here. And when they, the first kindly started, the railroads kindly started a melting away, see the superintendent of L&N Railroad, Mr. Fish, John Fish, he, his home’s right on up, up the street from here. Where he [coughs] excuse me, and they moved into Evansville. And it, and it, it started melting away from there when L&N started. Course, they had a lot of workers from the railroad company, a lot of them. Course, they’d come from Madisonville and other places, over here to work.

Interviewer: Were you born and raised here? Or did you come in?

T. Short: I was born in St. Charles, I was [ ]

Interviewer: Okay.

C. Short: A drift mine is where you go right into the coal from the side of the hill. While a smoke mine is where the coal is down a little lower under the ground, so you, we put a slope down to the coal. It’s a certain degree, see? And that’s called your slope. And say, for instance, you was working this drift mine and you wanted to go down, down farther to the next seam of coal, you just put it down, we had, we had the two mines working, same time, I recall. And one was over the other one, not eighty feet difference between the seams, see. And, and see if you study, if you take your geological [ ] drill holes, when I drill a hole down, I got, I got the strata all the way down. And when I hit one coal seam, well I put that down certain depths and, and all, then come on down to the next one. Well, when you, when you got these two coal seams, you know exactly how much trouble you have above you all the time between the seams. Well, that’s number eleven. Old coal number eleven. And number nine is underneath that. They was working numbers eleven and number nine at the same time. You could hear, you could hear [ ] coal when it first went in the mine. I could hear, heard a noise way outside. And I wondered what that was. I said, he said, “That’s somebody up in number eleven working.”

Interviewer: One mine on top of another mine?

C. Short: That’s right. Over us, yeah. See, they worked all the seams. And when they worked in two seams, you’d be working that way.

Interviewer: Well, what is the difference between a slope mine and a shaft mine?

C. Short: Well, now, I didn’t say about a shaft mine is where you go vertical, see? A shaft is just you, you put a shaft down vertical. You, you go out and, and, and know where you’re going to put the shaft down inside the mine. You just put your, you stake it off and, and vertically bring the debris out until you get down to the coal, and you have your shaft. And we had about, we had about one, two, I guess we had about four, four, four shaft mines down there. That’s that old mine Fort Madisonville, Renicky (??). You’ve seen that Renicky Mine. The chimney sticks up out there, I believe it’s, well that was an old shaft mine, too.

Interviewer: Does the company still own the company store over here?

C. Short: Yeah. Yeah. It’s, it’s owned by Island. Occidental Petroleum owns it now, course.

Interviewer: Why did they, is that unusual for a coal company to still own a company store? Is that I didn’t know there were any company stores still in existence. Is that, is that unusual?

C. Short: Well, I don’t, I don’t know of any myself. But I don’t know of any myself. That’s a well-known store there, and it’s been there practically all the time. Of course, they changed, changed hands a little bit when St. Bernard went to the West Kentucky, came over and bought this up here and bought the tire plant at the same time. And course, West Kentucky sold the tire plant off. And they own the lakes, you see.

Interviewer: Coming back to safety again, how, when a, when miners are, when something goes wrong in a mine, how, how do you get miners out, generally? You were starting to explain that to us earl-, earlier.

C. Short: Well, we had practically all our mines on what we call intake. They’d intake through a portal. You know, the portal would be where you go in and out. Had the blow in system of fan. Fans had a fan sitting out there. Then had the air shaft, would be, you could go like, it had, say some men were trapped on one side of the mine and wanted, wanted to get out, or if you had a fire, now, you’d have smoke going out, out through there. And you’d have to go back, you’d have to get on your intake and go back and go out your shaft. But we had it all marked and had a[n] escape shaft marked. So, the men could see, went in there anytime, they’d know where, where the sha-, shaft was and which way to go back out. And that is one of the things that any of our classes, we’d ask questions, “What would you do in case of a fire,” or in case on which side. And then they’d all, everybody knew how to get in and out. Course, sometimes some of them long airways was a long ways [way] through. And, but they were kept open and marked. And we’d have the air, have a big sign up, arrow, “Escape Shaft.” And I know that, and that was one of my duties to go through, or one of the duties I had on the other fellows, I went on a little farther along on safety, I had several fellows helping me, and now today I think surely they, they’ve got the same thing today, that in case you have trouble you, when you go in somewhere, just like you go in and someone hollers, “Fire!” or something like that, something like that, you’d know how to, how to get out, you could see a, some ways marked to get out.

Interviewer: The, I had a thought here.

[pause in recording]

C. Short: Basketball team, and even a little football team. We had a football team. I played on it. Played on the football team. [laughs] I, I weighed a 118 pounds, though, so I wasn’t, I wasn’t a very heavy weight on, on the football team. I wasn’t getting very far on that. We went over to Greenville; they beat us pretty bad over there. They , they said, “You all not even, not even a high school over there.” I said, “Yes, [ ] high school.” And, but we’d get around pretty fast. We had a pretty good little team. And, and, and softball. And base-, and football, that’s what I’m talking about. Football. I played football. And, of course, baseball.

Interviewer: Were the miners involved in the baseball team?

C. Short: Oh, yeah, the miners. And another thing, each year we still wanted to keep that up if we could. We, we brought them over here. We had a First Aid contest. In other words, we’d have anywhere from twenty to thirty teams. See each mine maybe have two or three teams. We’d pick out two or three mine [ ] and have First Aid contests. We’d give them problems, and, and it would be the time in working the problem, and mistakes. And you had the judges. And we’d have [ ] mines would send enough judges down here to take care of all of them. Then, as I recall, [ ] I had the Boy Scout team. And I had my Boy Scout team. And I trained them so good that the, the team next, next to them was watching them so, so much that how fast they were putting to work on, they didn’t, they didn’t, they didn’t, they made a little error in some of theirs. But the thing about it was, we got the boys interested in, in safety and First Aid. Of course, their fathers of some of them were miners. And we, we kept that Boy Scout team for quite a long time. And, and had mighty good interest in that.

Interviewer: In the startup of the, in the early days of the mines, before mechanization, did you use the pony to pull out on–

C. Short: We used mules.

Interviewer: Mules.

C. Short: I don’t know where they, they was used somewhere, I believe. See I’m, I’m on the safety department, indirectly, all the time. In case we had trouble, or in case, and I went to some of these other mines, too, around, and I’ve seen the ponies at one other mine. I think that’s the only place I did.

Interviewer: Did all the miners live in the houses provided by the, the company? Or did some live on farms around?

C. Short: Well, I’d say that some lived on farms, too. Because the company encouraged them to, to make your own home. And I believe they would sell them a house. They started to, selling house, and that’s what’s happened now. Nearly all these people around here, some of the hills down here, own their homes around there. They bought them from the company, see? They, they, they encouraged them to buy.

Interviewer: When did the mines, the mines are union now, aren’t they? Or are these non-union mines?

C. Short: Oh, these are union mines now. I don’t, I don’t recall, we’d have to look at the records that say exactly when they were unionized. But…

Interviewer: Are the, did you, where did you get the mules? Did they, did somebody around here raise them and sell them to the company?

C. Short: I, I suppose they did because I know they’d have, have the mules. And they rode the mules, they’d be pretty well trained. And I, I, I remember at each mine they’d have, have what you call a stable boss and have a stable and all, all where the kept the mules. And he thought as much of those mules, as he did the men when they [were] coming out. He’d look. And the mules, I know, over at St. Charles, you’re talking about St. Charles, I can’t think of the fellow’s name over there. But he’d better not hear someone beat the mule or anything like that, make them pull a car or anything like that. They, they, they, they [are] taking care of, not only the property, they [are] taking care of the mules, too.

Interviewer: Anything else you can think of, Tom or?

Other Interviewer: I think we certainly appreciate all of the time.

[End Interview.]